| Poll |
| Is the spirit of ultimate the same as it used to be? |
| It is the same |
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25% |
[ 13 ] |
| It is weaker than it used to be |
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71% |
[ 37 ] |
| It is stronger than it used to be |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 52 |
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mark_tran
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Post subject:
 Posted: Aug 02, 2012 - 03:42 PM
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jolly wrote:
I really don't know about spirit of the game.
At rec level, people are taught to force flick knowing that many at that level struggle with that throw, and it ends up being a large hurdle for beginners to get into the sport. That does not seem very spirited to me.
At the intermediate level, some teams play a zone, even in the absence of wind, knowing that opponents do not know how to break a zone.
Yet, its fouling someone to avoid a huck or stop momentum that gets hated on for being in poor spirit. I think it is on the same level as forcing flick or playing a zone.
And 14 referees on the field? How can you make a line call when you are paying attention to catching/defending the disc and not someones feet, yet the receiver always claim that they had best perspective. Perspective of what?
I'd just like to quickly counter that if newcomers don't learn about the force and throws other than the backhand because their opponents don't put on a force, they'll be stuck at the beginner level for a much longer time than necessary. As far as I know, people have the most fun when they can see themselves improving and overcoming challenges. I could be wrong though.
As for zones, most intermediate teams are in the process of learning how to play with and against zones and in order for them to do so, they need to practice it somewhere. Practice makes perfect right? |
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Chewbacca
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 02, 2012 - 10:32 AM
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I just read this article and it's pretty much speaks to this thread.
http://skydmagazine.com/2012/07/coaching-spirit-of-the-game/
Having coached high school, there is definitely a huge emphasis to promote spirit. The key things I think it boils down to is mutual respect for each other. That means respecting the calls of your opponents and watching for safety.
The reason I feel that ultimate in Toronto is loosing spirit is mainly because of the increased disregard for safety. There has been an increase in aggressive play. I could list several examples, but I don't want this to turn into a rant.
Regardless of the songs and fun, I think spirit boils down to respect and safety. |
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atanarjuat
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 01, 2012 - 06:32 PM
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Let me begin by saying that in this post, I mean no disrespect. I do want to challenge your ideas, though.
GregS wrote:
A quick query (which may well have bugs in it) on the TUC database actually shows that the spirit scores entered by captains is slowly increasing. The cynic in me says that this is probably the result of less and less captains really knowing what spirit is, and just always giving 10s unless there was a fist fight. As long as spirit scores are assigned subjectively and under external influences (e.g. the "I don't want my friends on the team we just played to think I'm a dick" effect), rather than objectively, there is no way for a governing body to make any meaningful measurement, so all we have are our personal feelings.
This is my point, naturally – that spirit is neither adequately defined nor measured. I’m not requiring definitions or examples from you, Greg – currently, I think it defies definition. But since there is such wide disparity in definition, measurement, and perception of “spirit” among different tiers and different communities, how can anyone say with any confidence that it is changing in strength, or even weakening? How would we know the difference between its strength and its flavour? How can we justify opinion or action on gut feeling?
How would we know that we weren’t just being as prejudiced and self-righteous as the barbarian hordes we imagine our invading our sport?
If current participants of the sport are not recording more grievances in regularly recorded spirit scores, then what reason do we have to think that there is less respect, less integrity, or less “basic joy of play” than before? If any of these were in fact in decline, would it not be surprising that ultimate continues to grow at nearly every level? Are not both these metrics (surveys and registrations) signs that people are happy and satisfied with the respect they feel in their sporting experience? Are we really trying to tell them they’re incorrect?
I find it interesting that you would be tempted to pass of rising spirit scores as indicative of declining awareness of spirit. What, then, could ever persuade you that spirit was on the rise?
Honestly, I think everyone answering “it is weaker than it used to be” on the poll above subscribes to a similar fear of social decay. And every time I hear this fear raised, it seems directed at Them – the mythical “win-at-all-costs athletes" from university (university -- traditionally, the sport’s strongest demographic since the very beginning) that we are supposedly attracting. I have to say that I am dearly sceptical. It sounds intensely tribal, like so many subculture communities that seem to insist they were better before they were popular. |
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jolly
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 01, 2012 - 05:37 PM
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Damian wrote:
Jolly -
It seems pretty clear cut to me ...
- The rules don't say you should not force flick.
- The rules don't say you should not play zone defense.
- The rules, however, do say that you should not foul the thrower (or anyone else), at any time.
- The rules do not say that you may foul the thrower, provided you reset the stall count, which is the intepretation of the rules I think you are relying upon in the logical chain of your post.
It seems to me like "competitive play" at the expense of the "basic joy of play", unless you find it enjoyable when an intermediate team turns over the disc on every possession against a zone. |
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GregS
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 01, 2012 - 03:38 PM
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TUC Webmaster
Player profile
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 1155
Status: Offline
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atanarjuat wrote:
SotG is neither adequately defined* nor adequately measured (to my knowledge, no governing body has measured a significant decline in spirit scores).
A quick query (which may well have bugs in it) on the TUC database actually shows that the spirit scores entered by captains is slowly increasing. The cynic in me says that this is probably the result of less and less captains really knowing what spirit is, and just always giving 10s unless there was a fist fight. As long as spirit scores are assigned subjectively and under external influences (e.g. the "I don't want my friends on the team we just played to think I'm a dick" effect), rather than objectively, there is no way for a governing body to make any meaningful measurement, so all we have are our personal feelings.
atanarjuat wrote:
How can we even begin to say it is manifestly changing or that it is in some way related to growth, the number of people playing, or the intensity with which ultimate is played? I would not say that basic "sportsmanship" is related to these variables, so why should "spirit?"
I would agree that the level of sportsmanship in the general population is unchanged, but would argue that, as Ultimate becomes more mainstream, it is attracting a higher percentage of "athletes" who bring to the game the "win at all costs" mentality that I think we'd all agree is, at least, more prevalent in sports like soccer, football, basketball, hockey, etc., where you are essentially encouraged to break the rules whenever you think you can get away with it, or when the penalty for doing so is less damaging than allowing the play to continue (the so-called "good penalty").
atanarjuat wrote:
Rule I.B is oft-lamented because it is not a definition but mostly a list of things SotG "is not." It is quite unclear whether it attempts to mean "fun" or "self-officiation" or "honesty."
I.B does say "never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play", so it seems that the authors consider those to be some of the things that spirit is. I agree that there should be a better definition, but don't know what it should be.
To me, spirit is essentially another word for respect.
One of the TUC score entry spirit questions is related to the game starting on time; showing up late is, to me, a sign of disrespect for the value of the time of your opponents and teammates who arrived on time but were unable to start the game until latecomers arrived.
Another spirit question is about rules knowledge; not knowing the rules (and there are teams who actually pride themselves on this!) is, to me, a sign of disrespect for your opponents who want to play the game according to the rules, so that there can be agreement over what is supposed to happen, as well as for the people who have volunteered probably hundreds of hours of their lives crafting a succession of better and better rulebooks in an effort to minimize arguments on the field. If you want to play a game where picks are never called, you have every right to do so, but that game is not Ultimate, and you should not be playing in an Ultimate league against teams that are expecting to play Ultimate.
I could go on with more examples of spirit equaling respect, but you'd stop reading...
One of the things that makes a "universal" definition difficult is that spirit really does seem to mean different things to different people. At different levels of competition, there are different expectations about what is acceptable and what is not, and this is as it should be. Low-level league play should have essentially no physical contact, as many of the players don't fully understand the physics of a curving disc, field space, positioning, etc. National and international play accepts much more contact, as it is expected that these players have trained and played for years, and understand how to jostle a bit with their defender while chasing down a huck, without anybody being in serious danger of an injury. In between, there are many shades of gray, and even from one city to another there are differences. There is one team in TUC that tends to get poor spirit ratings because they have a number of players from North Bay, who don't seem to understand (or, perhaps, care) that the culture in TUC leagues is less forgiving than the culture in North Bay leagues. Where they learned to play, their actions are acceptable and no reason to drop spirit points, but the same is not true where they are playing now. How can you come up with one definition of spirit that adequately covers all of these situations, without resorting to nebulous statements on the one hand or invalidating the way that many people play and enjoy the game on the other? |
_________________
Did you get that thing I sent you?
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atanarjuat
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 01, 2012 - 12:44 PM
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Craig wrote:
According to the poll, most agree Spirit is on the decline, which would make sense, since the numbers of players playing has increased and the competition is more intense at the higher levels.
I have trouble accepting that reasoning. I find it a little insulting, actually. SotG is neither adequately defined* nor adequately measured (to my knowledge, no governing body has measured a significant decline in spirit scores). How can we even begin to say it is manifestly changing or that it is in some way related to growth, the number of people playing, or the intensity with which ultimate is played? I would not say that basic "sportsmanship" is related to these variables, so why should "spirit?"
*Rule I.B is oft-lamented because it is not a definition but mostly a list of things SotG "is not." It is quite unclear whether it attempts to mean "fun" or "self-officiation" or "honesty." |
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Damian
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 01, 2012 - 10:57 AM
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Jolly -
It seems pretty clear cut to me ...
- The rules don't say you should not force flick.
- The rules don't say you should not play zone defense.
- The rules, however, do say that you should not foul the thrower (or anyone else), at any time.
- The rules do not say that you may foul the thrower, provided you reset the stall count, which is the intepretation of the rules I think you are relying upon in the logical chain of your post.
Now, I don't play at the highest level of the game, but it is pretty common in games that I play for the receiver to ask his defender if he was in on a questionable catch. Is it the norm? Maybe not - but it is certainly not a rare event.
As for the traditional cheer/song/spirit game with your opponents after the game, when I first played league in Fredericton - this was the expected norm. It is certainly not the case today. In some respects, I miss it, but, as someone who isn't particular inclined to writing songs etc., I also recall it often feeling like an obligation rather than something fun and I am not sure that I would want it 'mandated' back into the game. |
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jolly
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2012 - 04:32 PM
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I really don't know about spirit of the game.
At rec level, people are taught to force flick knowing that many at that level struggle with that throw, and it ends up being a large hurdle for beginners to get into the sport. That does not seem very spirited to me.
At the intermediate level, some teams play a zone, even in the absence of wind, knowing that opponents do not know how to break a zone.
Yet, its fouling someone to avoid a huck or stop momentum that gets hated on for being in poor spirit. I think it is on the same level as forcing flick or playing a zone.
And 14 referees on the field? How can you make a line call when you are paying attention to catching/defending the disc and not someones feet, yet the receiver always claim that they had best perspective. Perspective of what? |
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Craig
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2012 - 04:22 PM
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According to the poll, most agree Spirit is on the decline, which would make sense, since the numbers of players playing has increased and the competition is more intense at the higher levels.
I believe Spirit of the Game is a great concept. If done properly, it means there are 14 referees on the field as opposed to two refs or four observers. That said, the players have to trust each other that their opponent will play by the rules and not cheat. This is where the concept can falter, since players want to win and end up abusing the rules, like an intentional foul or a travel call on a long huck for a score, ("or winning at all costs" behaviour).
All disc sports, especially Ultimate were invented to enjoy being played. The Fun is the paramount priority of spirit. Winning at all costs is for other sports. Ours, if played with spirit, (joy, respect & integrity) is an example to all other sports of how to play a highly competitive game with genuine sportsmanship. Cheating, abusing the rules to your advantage or winning at any cost are concepts that are supposed to be foreign to Ultimate. If both teams demonstrate genuine spirit, then the best team on the day will win, not the team that did the best of getting away with cheating.
In the 11th edition rules, after the description of the game, SOTG is the first rule listed!
Introduction I.B.
"Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players."
Lead by example, which includes a proper attitude. Expecting your opponent will cheat is counter productive and more telling about yourself than them. Check out our Canadian Hall of Famer's guide to playing with good spirit. http://tuc.org/Spirit/Playing-with-Spirit
A good spirit example is when you call out your own teammate for making a bad call. The disc doesn't always have to go back either. If you have a "calm" (good attitude) discussion with no expectations, then one of the players involved may change their perspective, cause we all know there is always more than one perspective. (I've see observers at Clubs make different line calls on the same play).
If you have to win, then you won't be having any fun until you do, but if you just love to play, then you love to play and winning is just a bonus.
Enjoy the journey (the game) not the destination, (the win).
"I can't play being mad. I go out there and have fun. It's a game, and that's how I am going to treat it." ~ Ken Griffey Jr.
“Players need to understand the rules and play within them,” said Hayduk. “You have to manage yourself. It provides a lot of good character building. They’re forced to balance their competitive desire to win versus playing within the rules and doing what’s right.”
The classroom of ultimate is casual but formative. “I don’t think the kids realize they’re leaning a life lesson, it just happens,” he said."
~ Jon Hayduk is the Team Canada U19 Women's assistant head coach. |
_________________
When a ball dreams... it dreams it's a disc
Last edited by Craig on Jul 31, 2012 - 04:36 PM; edited 2 times in total
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smash-crunch
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2012 - 02:26 PM
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jonhollinger wrote:
woah woah woah.
what is disc jousting.
1 vs 1, You place a loose disc on top of an upside down disc in your hand. Both players try to cause the other to drop the loose disc. Only problem is that you need 6 discs.
Here's a photo of it in action.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nuttybeat/494703999/ |
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HotSauce
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Post subject: ...is different than it used to be
Posted: Jul 31, 2012 - 01:07 PM
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| As ultimate has evolved into a more competitive sport, I've noticed that the songs and "spirit games" have slowly been phased out. To me, this doesn't mean that "spirit' is weaker. There may be more players who either don't know or don't care about "spirit of the game" but that may be a result of there being more players in total. In my opinion, for those of us who care about "spirit of the game", we need to play with it and encourage those we play with and against to play with it. I don't think there is a way to sing people into "good spirit". Although strong spirits may bring out good singing... |
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atanarjuat
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2012 - 11:32 AM
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At the 2010 Ultimate Canada Conference, Sandie Hammerly (WFDF Director, former UPA Executive Director) challenged the audience to devise a satisfactory definition of the Spirit of the Game.
I have yet to come up with one.
I certainly can't pretend to measure it. |
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jonhollinger
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 30, 2012 - 11:39 PM
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woah woah woah.
what is disc jousting. |
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smash-crunch
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 30, 2012 - 07:32 PM
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What about the competitive spirit? When I make a call on the field, or give my perspective on a call, I'm not thinking about the spirit of the game, I just want to make sure that when I beat my opponent, it was fair and square.
Sometimes after a game where I've pushed myself I'm simply too tired to want to play a spirit game or sing. I'm sick of "mingle mingle mingle" too. Disc joust between team MVP's is way better. Anyone else agree? |
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nyxll
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Post subject: Is spirit leaking out of the game?
Posted: Jul 30, 2012 - 03:23 PM
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I was in a tourney on the weekend and most of our team started with wooden discs, so you can get an indication of our age.
We started reminicing about the days of old, when each team actually spent time with the other team after a game, did the whole singing thing etc. We were also talking about how the university generation tend to push the boundries of fouls, and calls a little further in the name of competitiveness over spirit.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Personally I never appreciated the spirit, and comraderie that I used to be forced to do till it left and everyone was a little more self serving.
Personally, I am going to make more of an effort going forward to bring the old spirit back into the game, even if it kills me. (which it probably will) |
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