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Running with your hands up

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Running with your hands up

Postby lwswong » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:56 am

I've heard this more than once now, and wondering if its true or not true.

Are you, or are you not allowed to defend a receiver with your hands out (while running). For the life of me, i cannot figure out why not, as this is the act of defending, but like i've said i've heard it a few times now, and wondering if its an ultimate "myth".

If it is true, can someone please point out the rule that states this.

Consider these scenarios. You're playing mid mid, with your back to the handler, covering any in-cutters. You are looking at an incutter, and spread your hands out and shuffle your feet to take positions before they get to those spots. Is this illegal (either in terms of having your ahnds out or as a blocking foul)?

You are defending a deep cutter, and they start to sprint with you on their side. The disc gets thrown up such that you have inside position, and as you are sprinting, your arm is stretched out in such a way that the receiver cannot go past you without contacting your arm, speeding up or slowing down to go around you. The disc is still a few seconds from reaching the two of you, so its not necessarily a direct play on the disc, however, you could argue that you are getting your hands extended in preparation for a catch.

Thoughts?
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Postby oshai » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:24 am

I think this is covered by both receiving and blocking fouls:

XVI.H.B.1 If a player contacts an opponent while the disc is in the air and thereby interferes with that opponent's attempt to make a play on the disc, that player has committed a receiving foul. Some amount of incidental contact before, during, or immediately after the attempt often is unavoidable and is not a foul.

XVI.H.C.1 When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b).

by stretching your arms to prevent your opponent from running past you, you made contact that interferes with your opponent attempt for a play on the disc. Also, you have moved in a manner solely to prevent them from taking an unoccupied path to the disc (like it or not, the spot beside is not occupied by you).

The contact between your arm and your opponent is most definitely not incidental, as it prevents your opponent from getting past you.
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Postby tubs » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:32 am

but you can run with your arms out if you don't make any contact...
right?!
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Postby gkitch » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:36 am

as long as you're not interfering with the other player or their ability to get into a position to make the catch then it is not a foul.

Ex. If you're playing deep (or in man) and the receiver has a step on you, if you run with your hands up you are not interfering with the other player. You're simply preventing the disc from arriving.

There's no difference between that and jumping vertically to prevent the disc from going over your head.

But you are right, I cannot find it in the rules either. Therefore it is permitted.
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Postby lwswong » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:56 am

OK - so what if the handler still has the disc in their hands. These scenarios cover situations why the disc is in the air.

So there is an in-cutter, and the mid mid has their hands out and defending the incut with their back to the handler. Now what?

(This is more the situation i am talking about rather than those where the disc has been thrown).

Thanks!

oshai wrote:I think this is covered by both receiving and blocking fouls:

XVI.H.B.1 If a player contacts an opponent while the disc is in the air and thereby interferes with that opponent's attempt to make a play on the disc, that player has committed a receiving foul. Some amount of incidental contact before, during, or immediately after the attempt often is unavoidable and is not a foul.

XVI.H.C.1 When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b).

by stretching your arms to prevent your opponent from running past you, you made contact that interferes with your opponent attempt for a play on the disc. Also, you have moved in a manner solely to prevent them from taking an unoccupied path to the disc (like it or not, the spot beside is not occupied by you).

The contact between your arm and your opponent is most definitely not incidental, as it prevents your opponent from getting past you.
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Postby GregS » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:19 pm

lwswong wrote:OK - so what if the handler still has the disc in their hands. These scenarios cover situations why the disc is in the air.

So there is an in-cutter, and the mid mid has their hands out and defending the incut with their back to the handler. Now what?

(This is more the situation i am talking about rather than those where the disc has been thrown).

Thanks!

You're right that XVI.H.3.b.1 and XVI.H.3.c.1 don't apply when the handler still has the disc. In that situation, I think the only rule in play is XVI.H.3.c.2:
A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered. Non-incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on the blocking player.

If you step in front of an in cut, or put your arms out, and they cannot avoid hitting you, it's a foul on you. If you see them coming and take away their lane, but they can stop or change direction in time to avoid contact, that's just good defence.

There is definitely nothing in the rules that gives priority to any given space to a player on offence, counter to what many cutters believe.
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Postby jed » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:56 pm

GregS wrote:If you step in front of an in cut, or put your arms out, and they cannot avoid hitting you, it's a foul on you. If you see them coming and take away their lane, but they can stop or change direction in time to avoid contact, that's just good defence.


I agree with this, except that I don't think you can use your arms to take the lane away. If you occupy the path with your body, that's good defence, but if you try to block the cutter with your arms, and they run into your arms, this could be a foul on you. I however do not have the patience to go and look up the supporting rules at this moment; but it has something to do with extended arms and legs not being included in a "legitimate stationary position".
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Postby tubs » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:43 pm

if i was a cutter and was in the middle of a cut, and see a defender with their arms extended, i would stop and change direction or go around the arms if possible - to me that's just good defence. they had that space first is how i look at it (unless they stuck it out last minute and i get clotheslined - then i'll call the foul).

what irks me is when i'm cutting, and the defender decides to stick their arms out last minute and then turns to me and says 'u can't run into me like that'...

if i could read minds, i'm sure i would choose not to get clotheslined by a defender and would be able to predict when he/she would do that and avoid contact all together.

if i was in the other position and was defending a lane with my arms out... as soon as i see a cutter coming dangerously close to my arms, i normally, as common courtesy, put my arms down (yes, not a good defensive strategy, but i don't set out to hurt someone when i play ultimate).

i did have an instance this weekend when i was marking a girl... she grabbed my arm with her hand, moved it out of the way, and then threw a flick :P she then called a foul on me for contact but decided to play on bc her intended receiver caught the disc...
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Postby mark_tran » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:11 pm

Hmm... So what happens when the players in a cup extend their arms in a manner that prevents the offence from crashing the cup? Is that a foul?
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Postby tugbo » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:42 pm

mark_tran wrote:Hmm... So what happens when the players in a cup extend their arms in a manner that prevents the offence from crashing the cup? Is that a foul?


My answer would be that this is not a foul.

I believe the relevant rules to be

"A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving
opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered. Non-
incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on
the blocking player."

The defender in the cup with their arms out making it difficult to crash the cup is not violating this rule unless they throw up their arms right as the cup crasher is trying to get by them. If the offense can avoid the extended arms then there is no foul.

"When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely
to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and
any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player
which is treated like a receiving foul."

If the defender in the cup already has their hands extended when the disc is thrown and then either doesn't move or moves in an attempt to make a play on the disc then they are not moving "solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc" so they are not committing a blocking foul.

I can think of no other foul that could be called on the person on the cup with their arms extended so I believe that such behaviour is completely legal.

... This is my first post on a rules forum so I welcome additional opinions/criticisms/elaborations/confirmations.
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Postby GregS » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:01 pm

Jed wrote:
GregS wrote:If you step in front of an in cut, or put your arms out, and they cannot avoid hitting you, it's a foul on you. If you see them coming and take away their lane, but they can stop or change direction in time to avoid contact, that's just good defence.

I agree with this, except that I don't think you can use your arms to take the lane away. If you occupy the path with your body, that's good defence, but if you try to block the cutter with your arms, and they run into your arms, this could be a foul on you. I however do not have the patience to go and look up the supporting rules at this moment; but it has something to do with extended arms and legs not being included in a "legitimate stationary position".

Pretty sure you're wrong. If I'm standing there with my arms out and you run into them, that's a foul on you, not me. If I throw my arms out at the last second and you can't avoid them, it's a foul on me. The "legitimate stationary position" bit is only for defenders marking the thrower.

tubs wrote:i did have an instance this weekend when i was marking a girl... she grabbed my arm with her hand, moved it out of the way, and then threw a flick :P she then called a foul on me for contact but decided to play on bc her intended receiver caught the disc...

Seriously? You should have called an offensive foul.
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Postby timkbryant » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:17 pm

GregS wrote:
tubs wrote:i did have an instance this weekend when i was marking a girl... she grabbed my arm with her hand, moved it out of the way, and then threw a flick :P she then called a foul on me for contact but decided to play on bc her intended receiver caught the disc...

Seriously? You should have called an offensive foul.


That's what I would think. You're not allowed to forcibly move your marker out of the way. If you were, I would elbow my marker to the ground every time. But I can't, so I don't.
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Postby larrypmac » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:06 pm

I think arms up in a good defensive position is perfectly fine. What you can't do is block someone from going where they want to go, either withyour body or with your arms... but it's infinitely easier to get your arms in someone's way, which is what the fuss is all about.

If you're going somewhere, and you get there first, and you're doing it to make a play, then it is not your foul, and this applies whether you are the offensive or defensive team.

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