Calling picks on your own team?

[jam9]

In a game, had a player call a pick violation which was actually on his team member (Red A was guarding Blue B, when Red C got in his way).

It happened fairly quickly and no one bothered to contest, but I was just looking up the rules - because I assumed you couldn't call a pick on your own team.

Rule I.1 States: Picks:

"A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (II.G) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player."

It just says "another player" and not "another offensive player".



I find this similar to the thread on pulls where alepete found: "Additionally, VIII. B. 9. states that "After a pull, whichever player takes possession of the disc must put it into play." A player is any of the 14 persons on the field. "


So is this just a case where the rule book has assumed it's an offensive player getting in the way, or can you actually call picks for interference on your own team?

[mkukucska89]

yes you can be picked by your own team

[tugbo]

yes you can be picked by your own team

Correct.

Note Red A is actually calling "pick" on Blue B for moving in such a manner that Red C is in the way. So Red A isn't actually calling a pick on his own team. Red A is just calling a pick where he/she was obstructed by his/her own team.

So assuming that Blue B was actually moving then this is a good pick call.
If Red C just runs into Red A and the collision (or need to avoid one) was not caused by Blue B moving in a manner that caused the obstruction then it is not a pick.

[dchen]

What if an offensive player calls pick? A few teams have been doing this against my team, it really bothers me....

From his example, a player from the blue team calling pick.

[ross]

so what you're saying is that the defensive player stands in the way so the offensive player can't cut to a certain part of the field? yup that sounds illegal to me.

[P.Sleeves]

so what you're saying is that the defensive player stands in the way so the offensive player can't cut to a certain part of the field? yup that sounds illegal to me.

XVI.H.3.c has some specifics about standing in people's way.

1. When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b).
2. A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered . Non-incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on the blocking player.

So yes, I can stand in the way if the disc isn't in the air, and they have time to react to me being there.

[lwswong]

What if an offensive player calls pick? A few teams have been doing this against my team, it really bothers me....

From his example, a player from the blue team calling pick.

It's not a pick. Only the defense can call a pick, as its an offensive violation.

However, the offence can call a blocking foul, which may apply.

XVI.H.3.c.1
When the disc is in the air a player may not move in a manner solely to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc
Solely. The intent of the player’s movement can be partly motivated to prevent an opponent from taking an unoccupied path to the disc, so long as it is part of a general effort to make a play on the disc. Note, if a trailing player runs into a player in front of him, it is nearly always a foul on the trailing player.
and any resulting non-incidental contact is a foul on the blocking player which is treated like a receiving foul (XVI.H.3.b)

Key thing to note with this rule, is that a defender can block someone's path on purpose, but only if they are also simultaneously playing the disc.

[dchen]

so what you're saying is that the defensive player stands in the way so the offensive player can't cut to a certain part of the field? yup that sounds illegal to me.

what i meant was:

Blue- offence
Red - defence

Blue A cuts in then out. Blue B cuts out then in. Blue B gets blocked by dumb Blue A. Dumber Blue B calls pick.

dumb and dumber

[Mortakai]

what i meant was:

Blue- offence
Red - defence

Blue A cuts in then out. Blue B cuts out then in. Blue B gets blocked by dumb Blue A. Dumber Blue B calls pick.

dumb and dumber

The pick rule explicitly states that the defense is obstructed. In your case red is defense and all your description has nothing to do with red (defense) players, so no pick at all.

Or in other words, no offense cannot call picks on its own (or other) players. It's a defense-only call.

[Mortakai]

Rule I.1 States: Picks:

"A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (II.G) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player."

It just says "another player" and not "another offensive player".

Yes, because it says what it means to say, any (offense or defense) player.

I find this similar to the thread on pulls where alepete found: "Additionally, VIII. B. 9. states that "After a pull, whichever player takes possession of the disc must put it into play." A player is any of the 14 persons on the field. "

Well, except that one team on the pull is designated the receiving team, so I'm not sure there should be confusion that the receiving team should be the one receiving the pull and putting the disc into play. At least one of the pull options is written in the active voice and explicitly says that "the receiving team puts the pull into play", while most of the others use the passive voice and say "the disc is put into play", without saying which of the players. This can be improved, but I'm not sure that there should be confusion when one team is designated the "receiving" team. We'll fix that.

[Osirus]

Just another hypothetical,
I am cutting short and retrieve the disc with a large gap between myself and the person that is meant to guard me. At this time the thrower breaks and has a couple of steps on the person guarding him. Instead of calling a switch the player meant to be guarding me moves in order to place himself inbetween the two other players to cause a pick call. Does the fact that my defender is not 3 meters near me or that his action to avoid the play caused the pick invalidate his teammates pick call?

[GregS]

Just another hypothetical,
I am cutting short and retrieve the disc with a large gap between myself and the person that is meant to guard me. At this time the thrower breaks and has a couple of steps on the person guarding him. Instead of calling a switch the player meant to be guarding me moves in order to place himself inbetween the two other players to cause a pick call. Does the fact that my defender is not 3 meters near me or that his action to avoid the play caused the pick invalidate his teammates pick call?

No. The 3 metres refers only to the distance between the person that was picked and the person they are covering.

If, on the other hand, he was just standing there, you ran through an empty space, and he then deftly interjected himself to block his own player, then you haven't "moved in a manner that caused a defensive player guarding an offensive player to be obstructed by another player", and the definition of a pick is not met. If he was already moving and his path carried him between you and your defender, then that definitely is a pick.

[Mortakai]

... Does the fact that my defender is not 3 meters near me or that his action to avoid the play caused the pick invalidate his teammates pick call?

I think Greg has nicely taken care of the first half and part of the second half, and allow me to add a bit to this latter...

If this other player (thrower) and accompanying defender are already in a particular direction, and your (switching) defender then decides to get in the way of that other defender, this normally shouldn't be considered a pick, because it wasn't that offensive player's movement that caused the obstruction, but rather was caused by the (switching) defender's movement.

... however, having said that, many/most players will still call this as a pick, even thought it normally is not. But I've rarely seen the ensuing discussion as successful in "correcting" the mis-call, and so is usually solved as if it WAS a valid call... even though it usually is not.