(1) Self Tipping and (2) Contested catching tie

[Gonzo]

A couple of quick rules questions that I would like confirmed. I'm pretty sure I made the right call in both cases but would like some input from other, less directly involved people.

(1) The disc is thrown to a receiver who jumps to try to catch it, misses the catch but tips the disc. The disc floats into the endzone, where the same receiver catches the disc before anybody else touches the disc. What's the call?

(2) A blade is thrown to a receiver. The defender jumps and believes he has caught the disc before the receiver touched it. The receiver jumps and believes she has caught the disc at the same time as the defender. What's the call?

Thanks,

Bill

[nyxll]

(1)
XV. The Receiver

A. A player may bobble the disc in order to gain control of it, but purposeful bobbling (including tipping, delaying, guiding, brushing or the like) to oneself
Tipping, brushing, etc. to someone else is legal. It is legal to tip/brush your own throw. However, if after a tip/brush, one is the first player to touch the disc, then it is deemed a tip/brush to oneself and it is a travel.
in order to advance the disc in any direction
Remember, you can bobble for the purpose of gaining control, so kicking the disc up to yourself to help catch it would be legal. But tipping the disc for the purpose of evading a defender would not be legal.
from where it initially was contacted is considered traveling.

----Did the disc advance in any direction? If not then the rule doesn't apply.

----Since you stated it was considered a travel,

XVI. C 4c
After a travel call, the thrower must return to the location occupied at the time of the infraction.

----The thrower in this case would be the person that caught the disc, since they "threw/tipped" it to themselves. I would interpret this at the initial point of the "tip".


(2)
XV.
D.If offensive and defensive players catch the disc simultaneously, the offense retains possession.

----If the defender and receiver are in dispute, then it should have been referred to someone in the field with the best perspective.

----If that doesn't work

XVI.
D. If a dispute arises concerning an infraction or the outcome of a play (e.g., a catch where no one had a good perspective), and the teams cannot come to a satisfactory resolution, play stops, and the disc is returned to the thrower and put into play with a check (VIII.D), with the count reached plus one or at six if over five.

[rahil_s]

A couple of quick rules questions that I would like confirmed. I'm pretty sure I made the right call in both cases but would like some input from other, less directly involved people.

(1) The disc is thrown to a receiver who jumps to try to catch it, misses the catch but tips the disc. The disc floats into the endzone, where the same receiver catches the disc before anybody else touches the disc. What's the call?

(2) A blade is thrown to a receiver. The defender jumps and believes he has caught the disc before the receiver touched it. The receiver jumps and believes she has caught the disc at the same time as the defender. What's the call?

Thanks,

Bill

1) It's a good catch Bill, he didn't try and intentionally advance the disc, he's just got butter fingers.

2) Tie goes to offense, if you can't tell. Send it back to thrower (and make him/her throw the blade again). (Second part is just recommended)

[guzzwell]

Just the tip?

[Gonzo]

So Rahil, in the case of (1), is it a point?

For me, I called (1) a point, but after much complaining from the other team's sideline, I gave up and the receiver took possession on the goal line. (Their main argument was that the play was intentional, which would have been an absolutely phenomenal play.) Note that the original tip happened outside the endzone.

For (2), after the receiver was adamant about the catch ending in a tie, I sent it back to the handler as a contested tie, again, after much complaing from the other team's sideline about the tie going to the receiver.

Btw, both of these plays basically happened right in front of the other team's bench.

Bill

[rahil_s]

It's a point, however, as with everything in ultimate, if the other team does not agree that the person did not purposefully mac the disc to himself, it goes back to where he first touched the disc.

[@UltiCraig]

Hey Bill,

Your choice of the word "tip" in scenario (1) is a bit confusing.
To tip the disc to oneself is illegal and the call is travel.

XV. The Receiver
"A. A player may bobble the disc in order to gain control of it, but purposeful bobbling (including tipping, delaying, guiding, brushing or the like) to oneself is illegal."
Tipping, guiding, delaying and brushing are all Freestyle techniques to control the movement of a disc. (Ultimate players call a brush a mac).

Two perspectives of what happened...
In your case it sounds like you thought your player tried to catch the disc, making contact with it once before then catching it on his 2nd attempt, but without trying to intentionally advance it and they thought he did intentionally tip and advance it to himself in the end-zone to produce the goal.
Since you can't agree on who's perspective might be right, the disc goes back to the spot where the violation occurred, where the disc was thought to have been tipped from and the disc checked in to resume play.
As well the reciever can take responsibility for the play and admit if he did intentionally tip it or not. Ideally we trust what he tells us because in the spirit of the game everyone plays fair! Right everyone? ~:)~


...Regarding advancing the disc in "any direction":

"----Did the disc advance in any direction? If not then the rule doesn't apply."
We had this discussion last year. According to UPA 11th edition rules, the disc was advanced "upward" and the rule does apply.
Check it out here:
http://tuc.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2& ... ic&t=11857
and here:
http://groups.google.com/group/upa_11th ... 7f1e79279c

[atanarjuat]

(Their main argument was that the play was intentional, which would have been an absolutely phenomenal play.)

Did no one ask the receiver in question? I'm sure he would know whether it was intentional or not.

In a decade of playing ultimate at a variety of levels, I have seen thousands of bobbles (as defined by the rules), but I have never seen anyone purposefully bobble the disc to oneself to advance it in any direction in a game (at least not in any capacity that could still be considered affecting the outcome of a play). Necessary skills aside, the economics of risk and reward are usually arranged such that everyone would much rather just catch it.

after the receiver was adamant about the catch ending in a tie, I sent it back to the handler as a contested tie, again, after much complaing from the other team's sideline about the tie going to the receiver.

If there is agreement that the catch was a tie, then the receiver keeps possession. If the tie itself is in dispute, then the disc is returned to thrower. It's simple, but people sometimes forget what they are actually arguing about, and just resort to repeating half-remembered rules.

[GregS]

just resort to repeating half-remembered rules.

And, more often than not, they are not even real rules that are half-remembered, but interpretations of ancient rules, filtered through multiple sources, and modified by partially-understood official revisions. The number of people who know that a rule changed between 10th and 11th editions, but have the change exactly backwards, is astonishing.

[atanarjuat]

As well the reciever can take responsibility for the play and admit if he did intentionally tip it or not. Ideally we trust what he tells us because in the spirit of the game everyone plays fair! Right everyone? ~:)~

If any self-respecting ultimate player ever publicly declares, "I actually tried to catch the frisbee and failed," you can be pretty sure he's telling the truth. No one with the ego and skill to pull a stunt like that is going to lie about it.

[Gonzo]

As far as the tip goes, I probably mis-spoke, as the receiver (she, not he) was jumping for the disc and missed the catch (so she never actually bobbled it, but it was more of a tip, just unintentionally). There were several other people in the area, as she wasn't the intended receiver and the disc wasn't supposed to be quite so floaty, so intentionally trying to tip it in that kind of situation would be extremely risky. The disc going to the wrong receiver and in an other than flat trajectory was the result of a marker fouling me on the throw (not saying that the throw wouldn't have been floaty and offline if I hadn't been fouled, just that in this particular case, I actually was fouled).

Rahil, there was one member of the opposite team (who wasn't on the field) who insisted that what happened had to be intentional, which was why we eventually just gave the disc to our receiver on the goal line. The irony of this whole situation is that we eventually did score on that point (after a couple of turns), but because of the delay, the point was scored after hard cap and we ended up winning the game on that point (11-10).

As far as the catching tie, there was no agreement on whether or not it was a tie (and tbh, it wasn't a tie, I caught the throw and the receiver grabbed it as I was coming down), so we ended up sending it back to the thrower. The big issue was with the other team complaining that the tie goes to the receiver and that I hadn't listened to the receiver's call, not realizing that by sending it back to the thrower, I had actually acknowledged, but contested the call (which I told the receiver, just not the sideline, but I'm just not sure the receiver understood and I was no longer in the mood to explain it, with the sideline complaining so much). Rahil, you know what I'm like when people annoy me...

What it comes down to, is that in both cases, the correct call was made on the field (one was overturned by the sideline), but I just wanted to run it by other people so that I can honestly say that "hey, it wasn't just me, a bunch of other (semi-) knowledgeable people agree with me."

Bill

[Kambei]

...Regarding advancing the disc in "any direction":

"----Did the disc advance in any direction? If not then the rule doesn't apply."
We had this discussion last year. According to UPA 11th edition rules, the disc was advanced "upward" and the rule does apply.

I've been mulling this over in my mind for years (yes, I'm a loser) and, considering the etymology of the word "advance", I think you cannot advance the disc upwards. The use of the word advance, strongly implies that you can also retreat the disc. Therefore, to advance the disc would be to move the disc closer to scoring and to retreat the disc would be to move it further away. A tip to gain control could be legal...clarification in 12th edition, please!

[Nigel]

I think we've been over the 'tip' rule before, but here's a really good example on video at the 1:00 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq3pg0JcJSI&feature=related Mike Grant & Castine from Scokeye joust, and MG tips it - and is smart/fast/lucky/alloftheabove to realize where the disc is, and athletic enough to catch it. Had he been in the endzone - point Canada.

Possibly a quirkier call would be the following scenario: throw to someone already in the endzone who decides to be cheeky and instead of catching it, does a nailspin for a bit, then catches it. Under the 11th, is that still advancing it?

As for the joint catch - the O player is using XV.D "If offensive and defensive players catch the disc simultaneously, the offense retains possession" - and you're contesting the timing of the catch. So that's XVI.D "If a dispute arises concerning an infraction or the outcome of a play (e.g., a catch where no one had a good perspective), and the teams cannot come to a satisfactory resolution, play stops, and the disc is returned to the thrower and put into play with a check (VIII.D), with the count reached plus one or at six if over five"

[tugbo]

Possibly a quirkier call would be the following scenario: throw to someone already in the endzone who decides to be cheeky and instead of catching it, does a nailspin for a bit, then catches it. Under the 11th, is that still advancing it?

The link Craig gave http://groups.google.com/group/upa_11th ... 7f1e79279c answers that question (scroll down to Jon Bauman's answer). Someone named Lynchie asked a very similar question about halfway down the thread.

Such a cheeky showboating manoever did not affect the play so XVI.C.2.b.1 does not come into play and so the play stand and the point counts as per XVI.C.2.b.2.

XVI.C.2.b
"For calls made by a non-thrower:
If the team that committed the infraction has possession:"

XVI.C.2.b.1 "If the infraction affected the play, play stops and the disc reverts to the thrower unless the specific rule says otherwise."

XVI.C.2.b.2 "If the infraction did not affect the play, play stops and the result of the play stands."

@kambei
The idea that you can "advance" upward seems odd to me too. However, the SRC did confirm that intentionally tipping the disc upward counts as advancing the disc. (again see Jon Bauman's comment on the bottom of the thread linked above) Fortunately this situation rarely comes up so I am happy to live with the wording.