Speed Point

[trevorl]

Question:

During "speed point" when a team scores a point what is the rule for the amount of time the opposition can take before picking up the disc and placing the disc back into play? Basically how long can they stall the game if at all?

[GregS]

http://www.tuc.org/Leagues/Fall-Winter-Indoor-Rules rule 6.

[jweinrib]

A follow-up question on that rule, as it has arisen a few times in my experience:

"The offensive team has 8 seconds to take possession of the disc. After 8 seconds elapse, a defensive player within three meters of the disc may announce "disc in" and then initiate and continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given audible warnings of eight and four seconds (pre-stall)."

What is considered an audible warning? Loud enough that someone near the disc (3-5 meters) can hear or loud enough that the other team's bench can hear if no one is near the disc?

This occured in one game where the full 16 seconds were reached but the team with possession contested that they were not able to hear the count since the entire line was changing and the disc was at the opposite end of the field from their bench.

Any thoughts on what a reasonable warning may be?

Edit: This thread should be moved to rules.

[GregS]

A follow-up question on that rule, as it has arisen a few times in my experience:

"The offensive team has 8 seconds to take possession of the disc. After 8 seconds elapse, a defensive player within three meters of the disc may announce "disc in" and then initiate and continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given audible warnings of eight and four seconds (pre-stall)."

What is considered an audible warning? Loud enough that someone near the disc (3-5 meters) can hear or loud enough that the other team's bench can hear if no one is near the disc?

This comes from the "regular"rules, XIII.A.3/4. There's no definition there of "audible". XIV.A.1 says you must count stalls "loudly enough for the thrower to hear". I'd say delay of game warnings should definitely be loud enough that the closest person on the other team can hear it, preferably loud enough that several can, but you don't necessarily have to scream it so that someone at the other end of the field can.

This occured in one game where the full 16 seconds were reached...

Do you mean 8 seconds of "delay of game" plus 8 seconds of "stalling one, two..."? Some people mistakenly think that you have to wait for 8 seconds before you can start the delay of game call, and then another 8 seconds to count that down before you can start the stall count.

Edit: This thread should be moved to rules.

Done.

[-JR-]

I agree with Greg that at minimum the thrower should hear it and if a thrower isn't yet defined (ie. everyone is interchanging on the far side of the field) then ideally the majority of the team. If the intent is to enforce the rule then try to avoid the situation where the opposition can contest the rule. So if no one is around BE LOUD enough that they can hear you. Perhaps even preclude your pre-stall count with an announcement if you think that will help (ie. 'starting pre-stall! 8....7...6...'). And try not to fast-count!

Something else to consider is that this is a lesser known rule. So even if the closest opposition player can hear you they may not be fully aware of the rule. By ensuring that several opposition players hear you would help ensure the stall down is not contested.

Lastly this rule tends to come into play more near the end of games. Team A (now on offence) is up by 1 or 2 points with little time left on the clock and wants to ensure it gets set up properly. Team B wants to get the disc in play as soon as possible. There is no harm in making the pre-stall count, but do so in a way that is Spirited!

[jweinrib]

16 seconds refers to an 8 second pre-stall count, the 'disc in' announcement and then an 8 second stall count, after which a stall infraction was called by our player.

[dentonmatthew]

To expand on this, if there is a turnover in the endzone and the disc is out of bounds, what is the responsibility of the (new) defender to initiate a pre-stall count?
-Is it the defender's responsibility to retrieve the disc and walk it back to the most appropriate place to put it in play?
- Does the defender merely have to go to the "in play" spot and start the pre-stall?
- By comparison, it is very clear that following a TD, the disc is live and in play where the disc was caught. (I assume at the first point of ground contact with posession)

The (new) offense gains advantage by slowing things down immediately following a change in posession, as teams tend to change on offense. In some ways, this habit takes the "speed" out of speed point.




as a PS, I'd love to write into speed point etiquette an obligation for the person receiving a TD to hold the disc up for a second as a signal to acknowledge the point. It would help scoring.

Too often when there is a point, the disc in on the ground within a heartbeat, and the receiver is back playing defense, acting in exactly the same manner as if they had dropped the disc...

[-JR-]

To expand on this, if there is a turnover in the endzone and the disc is out of bounds, what is the responsibility of the (new) defender to initiate a pre-stall count?
-Is it the defender's responsibility to retrieve the disc and walk it back to the most appropriate place to put it in play?
- Does the defender merely have to go to the "in play" spot and start the pre-stall?

As per the TUC Indoor League Rules:

"If the disc comes to rest other than on the playing field, the player retrieving it must put it into play within 16 seconds. After 16 seconds elapse, a defensive player within three meters of where the disc will be put into play may announce "disc in" and then initiate and continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given audible warnings of sixteen, eight and four seconds.
If the disc is not reasonably retrievable within 16 seconds (far out-of-bounds or under a bleacher, etc.), the player retrieving it may request another disc and any delay or pre-stall count is suspended until the offensive player receives the new disc."

[dentonmatthew]

- So only the offensive player can retrieve the disc and bring it onto the playing field proper?
- As a defender, a pre-stall count is 16 seconds, followed by "stalling 1..." at the point where the disc would be put into play?
Thanks JR

[atanarjuat]

as a PS, I'd love to write into speed point etiquette an obligation for the person receiving a TD to hold the disc up for a second as a signal to acknowledge the point. It would help scoring.

Too often when there is a point, the disc in on the ground within a heartbeat, and the receiver is back playing defense, acting in exactly the same manner as if they had dropped the disc...

Or, you could just make the hand signal for a goal.

[GregS]

- So only the offensive player can retrieve the disc and bring it onto the playing field proper?

Technically, yes, though in practice not very many people will get mad at a defender that goes to fetch it. If an offensive player retrieves it, they are required to be the one to put it into play; one can't go get it, then leave it for another.

- As a defender, a pre-stall count is 16 seconds, followed by "stalling 1..." at the point where the disc would be put into play?

If it's out of bounds, yes. Otherwise, the pre-stall is 8. It must always be done from within 3 metres of where the disc will be put into play.

[mcecch]

and, along the same lines as this. In a non-point turnover, is it 3 seconds (i.e. count back from 2-1-0) or 8 seconds prior to initiating stall?

For instance, on a mid-field turnover I stood over the disc while my whole team subbed. Defender started pre-stall.....

[muskokajoe]

Too often when there is a point, the disc in on the ground within a heartbeat, and the receiver is back playing defense, acting in exactly the same manner as if they had dropped the disc...

Word. I played indoor against a guy who would catch the point and drop the disc so fast you could not tell if he had caught it. A few discussions and (half-joking) threats to start calling them turns, and we had him being a little more obvious.

[lwswong]

and, along the same lines as this. In a non-point turnover, is it 3 seconds (i.e. count back from 2-1-0) or 8 seconds prior to initiating stall?

For instance, on a mid-field turnover I stood over the disc while my whole team subbed. Defender started pre-stall.....

They can do either one.

http://www.tuc.org/Leagues/Fall-Winter-Indoor-Rules - Rule 7c (I believe there is a similar rule in the 11th edition for regular point games)

"If an offensive player unnecessarily delays putting the disc into play (i.e. is within 3 metres of the disc and is taking their time to pick it up, standing over the disc, etc.), a defensive player within 3 metres of the disc may issue a delay of game warning instead of calling a violation. If the behaviour is not immediately corrected, the marker may initiate and continue a stall count, regardless of the actions of the offense. In order to invoke this rule, after announcing “delay of gameâ€￾, the marker must give the offense two seconds to react to the warning, and then announce “disc inâ€￾ before initiating the stall count. "

So in a purposely delaying picking the disc up situation, you can call either of a delay of game, or initiate a pre-stall.

If there is no one around the disc, you can only use the pre-stall rule.