TUC Games Time Caps

[drock3322]

From http://www.tuc.org/summer:
Time caps will be indicated on your game schedule. When you reach this time, you should complete the current point (if time cap not on the actual date of your game, use previous time cap). If one team has 17 or more points and is leading by at least 2, then the game is over. Otherwise, add one point to the higher score, and the game is over when a team reaches that score. If it gets too dark to play, please stop (tie scores are acceptable.)

Does anyone follow this?

It means that a team losing 13-16 at the time cap could go on a 4 point run for the win, provided they do it before it gets "too dark to play".

How does it apply for turf fields when there isn't another team waiting to take the field? ie. The lights at Downsview stay on till well after 11:20 pm.

In my 3 years of captaining I don't think I or any team I've played ever actually followed this; if it's a close game we usually decide on hard cap/soft cap as time approaches.

[GregS]

It means that a team losing 13-16 at the time cap could go on a 4 point run for the win, provided they do it before it gets "too dark to play".

In my 3 years of captaining I don't think I or any team I've played ever actually followed this; if it's a close game we usually decide on hard cap/soft cap as time approaches.

Yes, that's right. Highly unlikely, as there's usually not enough time for this, but possible. If you wait until "close" to the time, the team that's losing will tend to argue that it's plenty light enough for a few more points, while the team that's winning will argue that it's pretty dark already and shouldn't we just call it right now? So, as a captain, I always (when I remember) confirm both the time cap and a "drop-dead" time (note that this is not called a hard cap; that's something else) before the game starts.

How does it apply for turf fields when there isn't another team waiting to take the field? ie. The lights at Downsview stay on till well after 11:20 pm.

From a discussion I had with the Downsview people a few weeks ago, the lights there are not on timers, they are manually turned on and off, and they try to wait until people are off the field to turn them off. Playing until 11:20 means that you are keeping those employees there well past when their shift is done, probably without overtime pay. Also, we've only paid for those fields until 11:00. In such situations, when the time cap arrives, I believe you should finish the point in play and be done with it, tie or no tie. If it takes until 11:02, no real harm done.

For the earlier turf games (the 7:00-8:55 time slot), the same holds, but you should definitely get off the field no later than 9:00, even if that last point is still in progress, as that's the time that the next teams should be able to take the field.

[lwswong]

I always (when I remember)

= "I never"

[GregS]

I always (when I remember)

= "I never"

Well, not never, but not as often as I mean to. I certainly remember more often once we get into August and games start ending at 8:30 and earlier...

[cdilla]

I have a question - tonight we played a team that had agreed on a 8:40 hard cap...... then asked us at 8:30 to allow them to put in an 8 year old child in the game (one of the players children), when we said no, they called the game saying that it was "too dark to play safely".

(keeping in mind they had already been playing an 11 year old throughout the game).


The game ended at 8:35pm, a minute or two after we declined their request to allow a child to participate in the game. They called the game based on "safety issues".

Is there any way to stop a team that is winning from calling a game prematurely?

Granted the score was 12-7 at 8:30, but the request to sub in a child added insult to injury. Is there not some rule that a team forfeits when they walk off the field prior to an agreed upon time?

[Edk001]

Wow, what irresponsible adult allowed children to play in a league game? I'd seriously consider filing an incident report with the league.

Captains are supposed to know and abide by the league rules. See the Juniors Participation Policy under the Policies section of the About TUC tab above.

In bold text in this section, "Any Junior player who is 15 years of age or younger at any point during an adult league, is NOT eligible to participate in TUC adult leagues. Exceptions to this rule are at the discretion of the TUC GM".

I would think this is a more serious matter than the disagreement over when to call the time cap.

[ashunter]

The official TUC time cap for last night was 8:30 for most non-lighted fields. Sun sets earlier this time of year, and the time is reflected in the schedule, so you don't even have to check your local weather to see what time the sun sets.

From the summer information page:

Time caps will be indicated on your game schedule. When you reach this time, you should complete the current point (if time cap not on the actual date of your game, use previous time cap). If one team has 17 or more points and is leading by at least 2, then the game is over

Since they were up by 5 at 8:30, that's game. If they wanted to play an extra point for fun, it's up to the captains to agree on the rules. Looks like they couldn't agree.

I realise you had previously agreed to play until 8:40... but given how dark it was at my game last night at 8:30, I'd say that was overly ambitious.

There's a big difference between putting in an underage player in regular play, and doing it for a for fun point.

[GwaiLo]

The official TUC time cap for last night was 8:30 for most non-lighted fields. Sun sets earlier this time of year, and the time is reflected in the schedule, so you don't even have to check your local weather to see what time the sun sets.

From the summer information page:

Time caps will be indicated on your game schedule. When you reach this time, you should complete the current point (if time cap not on the actual date of your game, use previous time cap). If one team has 17 or more points and is leading by at least 2, then the game is over

Since they were up by 5 at 8:30, that's game. If they wanted to play an extra point for fun, it's up to the captains to agree on the rules. Looks like they couldn't agree.

I realise you had previously agreed to play until 8:40... but given how dark it was at my game last night at 8:30, I'd say that was overly ambitious.

There's a big difference between putting in an underage player in regular play, and doing it for a for fun point.

I don't know that I would agree with this entirely. If both captains agreed to play until 8:40 (captain's clause), then that's the time that you should be playing to. If it started to get dark early and it didn't look like the game would be able to make it to 8:40, then the captains should have discussed earlier (say 8:15 or so...basically when it started getting dark) and agreed to shorten it at that time. Or at the very least discussed and said "we might not make it to 8:40, but let's keep playing for now and see how it goes". At least that way both captains know in advance and can agree to it. I think it's pretty crappy for a team to just suddenly say "it's too dark to play, we're done" after agreeing pre-game to a later finish time.

Did it just suddenly get dark at 8:30 with no warning at all?

[ashunter]

The captains clause is great, but it can't make the sun stay up. I've played past the official time cap in the past, I know many who have, but usually on clear nights. Last night it was pretty dim at 8:30. By setting a time cap of 8:40, they were setting themselves up for some conflict.

It sounds like that conflict then spilled over into the discussion about opening up the game to something to make it more fun and relaxed, and that's unfortunate.

But from a high level, the game was over. No one's going to score 5 points in 10 minutes on a dark and rain covered field. I've been on the wrong side of those sorts of scores, and it galls a bit to have a team quit while you're still keen to play, but you have to step back. Ask yourself if the risk of playing an intense game on wet and dark field is worth an extra rating point or two.

If you still want to play, consider doing something low key to end the game on a high note. Walking points, switching up teams. It's a great way to get to know your opponents.

Next week's games are going to end even earlier. Every year this catches people by surprise. Captains will be doing themselves a favour if they talk about time caps at the start of the game, and get the game going as soon as possible.

[HotSauce]

collind, assuming you started the game at 7:00, you scored 7 points in 90 minutes and you expected to score 6 unanswered points in 5 minutes? I'm no math major but that sounds unlikely...

[cdilla]

collind, assuming you started the game at 7:00, you scored 7 points in 90 minutes and you expected to score 6 unanswered points in 5 minutes? I'm no math major but that sounds unlikely...

I think the point of the post was to highlight the irony of a team requesting to sub an 8 year old on the field (while already playing an 11 year old), but then calling the game prior to an agreed upon (and re-affirmed at 8:15) hard cap (per captains clause).

There really was no discussion, at around 8:25pm we were asked if we would allow an 8 year old to play, we declined for obvious reasons - one for safety, (wet field, lights going down) and the other for morale (our team was losing by a large margin).

Within 2 mins of the request, a couple of the opponents called the game by walking off the field claiming it was unsafe to play.

So while I accept ASHUNTER's perspective on the light conditions, the captains had agreed upon the time - and had reaffirmed the hardcap at 8:15pm, so there was not a “suddenly getting darkâ€￾, it was only a vocal minority (2 players) wanting to stop the game.

To HOTSAUCE’s point, we were not under the impression we were going to score 6 unanswered points, but we were having a great game and were making somewhat of a comeback. (We scored 4 unanswered before the game was called).

And EDK’s point on the underage player – In the other teams defence, they did ask permission to field their 11 year old child prior to the game. Unfortunately a player from our side unfamiliar with TUC’s policies agreed they could field the player. I know some of our team was not comfortable with a child playing in a league game, but to show spirit we did not protest.

In conclusion there have been to issues in the previous post(s), however the main question remains if there is anything stopping a team from walking off the field prior to an agreed upon hardcap.

Obviously nobody wants to play in the dark, but in the spirit of the game I believe there should be a certain exercise of spirited judgement (we agreed to hardcap but let’s end the game in a few points). Let’s not let this thread detract drock’s original thread (I apologize for the hijack).

[Mortakai]

From an outside view...

I suggest it's a bad idea for any captains to captain's clause to end a game later than the "official league hard cap" time. Those times are set for safety reasons, presumably based on analysis of sun-down and average clear/cloudy night variations. And two captains simply CANNOT come to a BETTER decision, from a safety perspective, by guessing how much light there will be more than a half-hour later. This example is a good illustration of my suggestion.

And sure, allowing someone 'under-age' might be "because of spirit"... but the league's policy is based on a very significant liability issue. It's completely unfair of one team to request it, and terrible risk management for the other team to agree to it. I hope that this forwardness does not offend anyone involved (or others, obviously), but we're talking about something much bigger than just being nice and spirited - there are potentially massive repercussions to this decision: financial, sanctioning (removal of fields), health/safety/life.

Maybe the captains or whomever asked and agreed to this, weren't aware of the policy, but they sure should have. It's a small responsibility, that simply isn't taken seriously enough by enough people. For this very reason.

{/rant}

[drock3322]

ASHUNTER, correct me if I'm wrong here, but when you say:

From the summer information page:

Time caps will be indicated on your game schedule. When you reach this time, you should complete the current point (if time cap not on the actual date of your game, use previous time cap). If one team has 17 or more points and is leading by at least 2, then the game is over

Since they were up by 5 at 8:30, that's game.

you only mean the game is essentially over based on the unlikelihood of the other team catching up, right?

As per my post at the start of this thread, the next line in that TUC time guideline indicates that the game isn't actually over until the leading team scores 2 points (including finishing the point when the time cap hits), independent of the score spread.

I think I'll be following Greg's advice about the "drop-dead" time cap for tonight's game of 10 minutes after the time cap of 8:20 pm.

[HotSauce]

The next line reads: "Otherwise, add one point to the higher score, and the game is over when a team reaches that score."

[GregS]

I think I'll be following Greg's advice about the "drop-dead" time cap for tonight's game of 10 minutes after the time cap of 8:20 pm.

For the record, I never said 10 minutes, and personally always suggest 5 (unless it's really cloudy, in which case it's going to get dark even faster).

[lwswong]

For those who don't know, TUC management changed the policy on time caps this week, in response to a number of similar questions and issues during the season. It was sent to all captains this week.

The new rule reads like this:

Time caps will be indicated on your game schedule. When you reach this time, you should complete the current point and immediately end your game (tie scores are acceptable). If it gets too dark to play before your scheduled end time, please for your own safefy stop playing your game.

http://www.tuc.org/Leagues/Summer

Hopefully this is pretty clear cut for everyone now.

Get to the time cap. Play out the point. Game is OVER.

They've done away with soft cap confusion, and eliminated the need to make the decision of what constitutes too dark after the soft cap (but creating a hard cap instead).

there will be some instances (on cloudy/overcast days) where it will be too dark BEFORE the timecap, so captains will have to find a way to mutually agree on this if that ends up being the case. But hopefully that won't happen too often.

And now.....Let the arguments begin about which team has the "official time/watch".....

[GwaiLo]

...

And now.....Let the arguments begin about which team has the "official time/watch".....

Synchronized swatches?

[ashunter]

Official TUC game discs with an embedded LED clock in the middle? If you can see the clock, it's too dark, stop playing.

[HotSauce]

...

And now.....Let the arguments begin about which team has the "official time/watch".....

Synchronized swatches?

In this age of smartphones all sync'd to network time is this still an issue? If someone showed me his "watch" and said that was the official time keeper, I would laugh...and laugh...and laugh...(I probably wouldn't but it doesn't hurt to let your opponent think you're crazy)

My question is what happens if one team scores to tie the game just before time cap and time cap is reached as teams are walking to the line for the next point. I already know what I would say but I want to see what other smart(ass) comments are posted...yeah it's a Friday...

[lwswong]

My question is what happens if one team scores to tie the game just before time cap and time cap is reached as teams are walking to the line for the next point. I already know what I would say but I want to see what other smart(ass) comments are posted...yeah it's a Friday...

Since we don't have a specific TUC rule, we go to the 11th edition rule about it.

11th Edition - V.c. -
"A hard time cap is the ending of the game once a predetermined time of play has elapsed and after the current scoring attempt is completed. "

This doesn't totally resolve the issue until we define what a scoring attempt is. Its defined in Rule II.

Scoring attempt: A scoring attempt starts at the beginning of the game or when the previous goal is scored and ends when the next goal is scored.

So i think its pretty cut and dry. You'd play one more point, since as teams are walking down the field for the next point, it is a "new scoring attempt"