Standing Over a Disc

[larrypmac]

Turnover. The player on the team that is takingf possession of the disc walks over and stands over the disc, but does not bend over and touch the disc.

Does the marker have to count delay all the way down from 10 before counting stalls?

Larry

[GwaiLo]

http://tuc.org/Fall-Indoor-Rules/

7. c.

"If an offensive player unnecessarily delays putting the disc into play (i.e. is within 3 metres of the disc and is taking their time to pick it up, standing over the disc, etc.), a defensive player within 3 metres of the disc may issue a delay of game warning instead of calling a violation. If the behaviour is not immediately corrected, the marker may initiate and continue a stall count, regardless of the actions of the offense. In order to invoke this rule, after announcing “delay of gameâ€￾, the marker must give the offense two seconds to react to the warning, and then announce “disc inâ€￾ before initiating the stall count."

[HotSauce]

In an incredible coincidence, something similar came into play in last night's game involving Larry's team. There was some discussion concerning the play but in the end this key point was highlighted and I think it would be good to be repeated here:

7.a.

If the disc comes to rest on the playing field, a member of the team becoming offense must put the disc into play within 8 seconds after it comes to rest. After 8 seconds elapse, a defensive player within three meters of the disc may announce "disc in" and then initiate and continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given audible warnings of eight and four seconds (pre-stall)..

i.e. the offense has to HEAR that you are counting the pre-stall. Otherwise, I would assume calls like fast count could apply. I know some folks who can count from 8 to 0 and back to 8 pretty quickly...

[@UltiCraig]

Does the marker have to count delay all the way down from 10 before counting stalls?

My understanding of the rules in this situation is that the pre-stall count is not necessary if the player i.e. is within 3 metres of the disc and is taking their time to pick it up, standing over the disc, etc.)

Generally a player has 10 seconds to retrieve the disc (8 seconds for TUC speed point), or get to the disc to pick it up, but if they are already there a pre-stall is not required.

If they are just standing over the disc, then 7.c. applies.

[lwswong]

My understanding of the rules in this situation is that the pre-stall count is not necessary if the player i.e. is within 3 metres of the disc and is taking their time to pick it up, standing over the disc, etc.)

Generally a player has 10 seconds to retrieve the disc (8 seconds for TUC speed point), or get to the disc to pick it up, but if they are already there a pre-stall is not required.

If they are just standing over the disc, then 7.c. applies.

I've always found this to be a bit of a silly rule.

Let's take this scenario:

A player starts walking towards the disc, but his/her whole team is subbing off. The player gets to the disc and stands over it. Defender calls delay of game. The player standing over the disc then walks away from the disc (further than 3 metres) and allows a better handler to pick up the disc.
In this case, the rule 7c applies and the defender can begin the count.

However, if the player had been smart and just stayed well away from the disc and not even made an attempt to be near it, they'd have a full 8 seconds to get the disc in play.

I don't see why the rule needs to be different for the two situations. Hoping 12th edition can just make it one rule (a pre-stall) and be done with it. There's no need to have a second rule.

I guess this is just a rant and not actually contributing to clarification....oh well.

[jed]

Generally a player has 10 seconds to retrieve the disc (8 seconds for TUC speed point)

Slightly off topic - but I think this should be 10 seconds for speed point, if not higher. I can understand the rationale of shortening it to correspond with the faster game overall; but this ignores the fact that fairly often, a majority of players will sub off after a turnover. So time is required for a player to sub off, and for the new player to get to the spot on the field where the disc is. (BTW, is it 16 seconds of the disc is OB or in the endzone?).

[HotSauce]

Now we're covering all of the 7th rule sub-rules.

7.b. states:

"If the disc comes to rest other than on the playing field, the player retrieving it must put it into play within 16 seconds. After 16 seconds elapse, a defensive player within three meters of where the disc will be put into play may announce "disc in" and then initiate and continue the stall count, but only if a defensive player has given audible warnings of sixteen, eight and four seconds.
If the disc is not reasonably retrievable within 16 seconds (far out-of-bounds or under a bleacher, etc.), the player retrieving it may request another disc and any delay or pre-stall count is suspended until the offensive player receives the new disc."

Because of live endzones, a disc after a score in the endzone is still in play.

After a turnover, rule 11 applies:

"When the disc remains in the end zone after a turnover, it can (a) be put into play where it lies or (b) be walked up straight ahead of where it lies in the end zone, and put into play at the front of the end zone. Note: pausing or establishing a pivot where the disc lies precludes the offense from walking the disc up to the front of the end zone."

Now, what happens when the player picks up a disc after a turnover and SLOWLY walks it to the front of the end zone? Or in the worst case scenario, after a wholesale line change, the handler stands over the disc, takes his time picking it up, and then slowly walks it to the front of the end zone? When can the defensive player announce "delay of game" and count the 2 seconds and then initiate the stall count?

...and at what point does spirit of the game come into play?

[@UltiCraig]

...and at what point does spirit of the game come into play?

hey Dude,

Does this answer your question?

XIX Etiquette.
B. It is the responsibility of all players to avoid any delay when starting, restarting, or continuing play. This includes standing over the disc or taking more time than reasonably necessary to put the disc into play.

Suggests to me that taking extra time to get to the disc or standing over it, is poor Ultimate etiquette and thus poor spirit, not an acceptable good strategy.

[GregS]

Now, what happens when the player picks up a disc after a turnover and SLOWLY walks it to the front of the end zone? Or in the worst case scenario, after a wholesale line change, the handler stands over the disc, takes his time picking it up, and then slowly walks it to the front of the end zone? When can the defensive player announce "delay of game" and count the 2 seconds and then initiate the stall count?

I refer back to 7c (and remind you that this rule is intended solely to modify XIII.A.5 of the 11th edition rules for indoor play without changing the spirit of that rule), which reads "If an offensive player unnecessarily delays putting the disc into play (i.e. is within 3 metres of the disc and is taking their time to pick it up, standing over the disc, etc.)" The entire "i.e." phrase is not in 11th edition, but is a TUC addition to clarify the meaning. Most importantly, note that there is an "etc" at the end: it is NOT only if the player is standing over the disc that this rule can apply. It is ANY time that there is an unnecessary delay, which could certainly include walking the disc up slowly.

...and at what point does spirit of the game come into play?

As soon as you arrive at the field!

XIX Etiquette.
B. It is the responsibility of all players to avoid any delay when starting, restarting, or continuing play. This includes standing over the disc or taking more time than reasonably necessary to put the disc into play.

Suggests to me that unnecessarily taking extra time to get to the disc or standing over it, is poor Ultimate etiquette and thus poor spirit, not an acceptable good strategy.

I agree with Craig's statement, now that I've added "unnecessarily" into it. It could be argued, for example, that forcing someone to immediately pick up the disc when all other players on the field are subbing off was never part of the original intent of this rule (clearly, since the original rule was written before there was speedpoint), and so a certain amount of delay could be considered necessary. I like to think that I'm a pretty spirited player (at least most of the time...), but I regularly counsel my indoor teams to take a look before picking the disc up, and, if everybody else is subbing, off to walk away or at least wait a couple of seconds before picking it up. If people are taking their sweet time about subbing off or about starting their cuts after they have done so, or if this is happening on Every. Single. Turnover. then by all means call delay of game and get things moving, but otherwise I think that a little bit of leeway should be encouraged.

[HotSauce]

Greg you beat me to the post. Language concerning "etiquette" or "spirit of the game" is usually quite ambiguous but there are hard numbers associated with the seconds you can count for all those situations. If a defender notices that the other team is subbing off their main handler when the disc lands out of bounds far from their bench and starts counting the 16 seconds and then counting stalls is he just playing according to the rules? How does one define "reasonably retrievable"? Is the defender showing "etiquette"?

My point is that at most levels of play, the rules must bend to a bit of sportsmanship and common sense. Just because you can stall down a team and get an easy turnover, doesn't mean you should.

Perhaps at higher levels where everyone is fast and on the ball and can handle reasonably well, these rules can be applied more rigorously.

[theprdg]

I would personally not call a delay of game ever unless the other team is very deliberately and blatantly taking their time setting up, standing over the disc, etc. I haven't seen this happen in-game or in any of the recorded games posted on youtube.

Specific to speedpoint however, I would start the pre-stall count to get them moving along. Particularly if there was someone on the field that wasn't subbing off but wasn't making an attempt at picking up the disc. Waiting on the other team to sub and set up and/or waiting on their 'handlers' to come on before starting play again takes away from the "speedpoint" component of the game.

[DjDATZ]

So a reverse question to the main stream of this discussion, particularly because I do this a lot. If there's a turnover in your own endzone because the opposing team failed to score, are you allowed to hustle back to grab the disc, hustle it back up to the line, and immediately start the play before anyone is covering you?

I get how this could be deemed unsportsmanlike if the defender that say ran on to it had to take his time getting back to the field due to puddles/benches/obstacles, but in a case where all the players are actively on the field.

I get a lot of really open first throws from our endzone like this because players just don't expect any hustling. (Or catching their zone's cup way off guard!)

[lwswong]

So a reverse question to the main stream of this discussion, particularly because I do this a lot. If there's a turnover in your own endzone because the opposing team failed to score, are you allowed to hustle back to grab the disc, hustle it back up to the line, and immediately start the play before anyone is covering you?

totally legit.

as you said, sometimes, it requires a bit of judgement. if, for example, it got dropped, rolled out of bounds, and the defensive player went to stop it, picked it up, walked it to you, then handed it to you, and then you decided you'd run to the front of the endzone, and tap it in, that may be deemed a little outside of the rules of etiquette.

But just playing the disc quickly (you could even establish a pivot and play it directly from where you picked up) is completely fair and allowed.

[DjDATZ]

as you said, sometimes, it requires a bit of judgement. if, for example, it got dropped, rolled out of bounds, and the defensive player went to stop it, picked it up, walked it to you, then handed it to you, and then you decided you'd run to the front of the endzone, and tap it in, that may be deemed a little outside of the rules of etiquette.

Yea, that's being a d***. Usually if a defender that's not my mark goes and grabs it, I'll give them time to catch up to their player.