Sideline Interference

[MikeHobbit]

We had a situation in a game last week where our thrower was in the corner of our endzone on the opponents' home sideline. Pass went up more or less on top of the sideline. While the pass was in the air, an opposing player who was off the field stepped towards the sideline, presumably to sub on. He had his back to the play and the disc hit him before he subbed on. Our opponents claimed that the disc was OB since it hit an out-of-bounds object (which is technically accurate, IX.B). The only thing I can find to address this situation in the rules is a reference to "Sideline obstruction" (III.G), but it seems like that has to be called by a thrower in possession and can't be called while the disc is in the air. Is there anything else in the rules that addresses this situation (which, admittedly, seems to be unique to the indoor speedpoint format)?

[nhung2]

This is sort of addressed in the TUC rules in rules 8 and 9 of the TUC Rules:
http://www.tuc.org/rules/indoor

First, we look at the definition of subbing (Rule 8 ):
"Every player entering the field must "high five" the outgoing player on the sideline before entering the field. "

Second, Rule 9 states that : When the disc hits an object (wall, ceiling, player on the sideline) it is out-of bounds.

So, we first have to look at the various scenarios of the subbing player. Is he on or off the field of play? Has he been validly "high-fived." Per Rule 8, a valid high five only occurs when a person is high-fived prior entering the field. This isn't typically what happens, alot of players run on and high five the player halfway two or three steps from the line. For this argument, I would presume that in the transitional period where there are two players on the field now, the person who has done the tagging is still techincally the legal player until he leaves the field of play, and then the de facto tag occurs)

That being said I don't think the end result is so different in each scenario, perhaps only differing in one scenario.

1) Person Off the field, not high fived- This person is considered an "object" for the purposes of Rule 9. The throw is out of bounds.
2) Person Off the Field, High-Fived- This would arguably actually be a D, valid legal player knocks down a disc.
3) Person on the Field, High-Fived- Again, arguably a D.
4) Person on the Field, NOT high fived. (When I say not high fived, I mean not legally high fived, therefore a person has entered the field of play, probably before the person subbing out has not yet left the field of play) This is where it gets tricky. As Rule 9 states before a person on the sideline is an object for sake of out-of-bounds. In this case, however, a person isn't actually legally tagged in. Therefore, I would call too many men, and possession would remain with the thrower.Even if the intent is to sub, the person has not yet done so, therefore has illegally entered the field of play.

Bang Bang Play. Difficult to enforce because most people run onto the field to sub but if the person hasn't tagged or has improperly tagged, they are a 7th player. Illegal sub. Possession remains with offense.

[cut-chemist]

Wouldn't rule III.G be relevant? "If play is obstructed by competitors, coaches, spectators or objects within five meters of the playing field, any obstructed player or thrower in possession may call this violation. Play resumes at the stall count reached plus one, or 9 if over 8." To use this rule in the situation you describe, the call would have to be made before the throw goes out.
Of course, the problem is that with the small sidelines and subbing on the fly (and many teams choosing to force home to create this kind of havoc), this call would be made a ton in indoor speedpoint games. And that would be no fun. It seems that this rule and the substitution rules are not very compatible. Probably the sensible way to minimize this kind of interference is for players on the sideline to be aware of what is happening on the field, and to have good spirit by giving as much room as possible when the disc is on the home sideline. I would be reluctant to make a call based on III.G above in an indoor game, but I would hope that players on both teams would try their best to get out of the way.

[nhung2]

Wouldn't rule III.G be relevant? "If play is obstructed by competitors, coaches, spectators or objects within five meters of the playing field, any obstructed player or thrower in possession may call this violation. Play resumes at the stall count reached plus one, or 9 if over 8." To use this rule in the situation you describe, the call would have to be made before the throw goes out.
Of course, the problem is that with the small sidelines and subbing on the fly (and many teams choosing to force home to create this kind of havoc), this call would be made a ton in indoor speedpoint games. And that would be no fun. It seems that this rule and the substitution rules are not very compatible. Probably the sensible way to minimize this kind of interference is for players on the sideline to be aware of what is happening on the field, and to have good spirit by giving as much room as possible when the disc is on the home sideline. I would be reluctant to make a call based on III.G above in an indoor game, but I would hope that players on both teams would try their best to get out of the way.

So I think in this case the rule is different.You seem to be quoting the case of "give the line," and would be called by the thrower to move out of the way. i.e. if there was for example a tent right on the sideline, a thrower could call the violation, make the team move the tent before continuing play. In Indoor, i agree that it is good spirit to just give as much room, and the call would be not very spirited to call in light of the fact there is not much room on the sidelines.

In this case, I am more focused on the fact that the person was "subbing" but ON the field of play. While the reality (and spirit) of the subbing allows for individuals to run onto the field to sub, in reality, for that period of time it is too many men. It is an innocent issue that people do not call because that would cause havoc in subbing (and would be made a ton). The issue however is when that person who is technically illegally subbing affects the play. Would it make a difference if a person was on the field, hadn't tagged but stepped one foot into the field and knocked down the disc? He could claim since he was an out of bounds object, that he was out of bounds. That is where I am having the issue, I think once you enter the field of play you have to be considered a live player, and if you are subbing by running onto the field and tagging and accidentally interfere with the disc, that is still in my opinion still a violation. Now if the person who is tagging off has left the field of play when that person makes the inadvertent D, I still think it is a valid D because there are a valid number of players on the field.