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How to handle this?

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How to handle this?

Postby Richard K » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:48 am

Here's a situation that happened at Northern Flights:

I have the disc, and the guy marking me is not giving me disc space. I step away on a fake, and he steps over and past my pivot. Now he's quite literally straddling my pivot by at least a disc width (basically standing over my knee, preventing me from any pivoting). After calling disc space a few times (both before and after I step back), he keeps steadily counting and doesn't back off, so I call "violation". He's incredulous, and so I put the disc on the ground near my pivot to show him that's he's infringing by at least 2 disc widths. His body language clearly says he's incensed and this isn't a rule/call he accepts/plays with, and says "whatever, let's go." We check things in, he immediately straddles my pivot again, and calls foul on my first fake (since I clearly can't pivot without contact). I assume he called a foul on me, and I just let it go, let him check it in. At this point I take my first available force throw just to end the situation.

What should I have done here? This guy is a well experienced player, having in the past played on high level touring teams, and I felt he was flagrantly breaking/ignoring a basic rule. They were already up 10 points, so nothing at this point would have had any effect on the outcome of the game. After the point I explained what happened to my captain, and we left it at that.

Since he's been playing for a long time, maybe he's still thinking of some old rule where you used to be allowed to straddle the thrower's pivot? Anyone know how long ago that was? My memory only goes back to edition 10, but I'm sure someone out there might remember.
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Postby Edk001 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:31 am

Call a timeout and hope the same guy doesn't mark you on resumption of play?

This sounds eerily like what happened in one of my league games a couple of weeks ago, where a girl on the other team did exactly the same thing to one of my teammates, and refused to acknowledge disc space/violation calls. Either she didn't know the rules, or thought she did and chose to ignore them.
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Postby GregS » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:57 am

Maybe ask if there's anyone else on their team that understands the disc space rule and can confirm your call? People are sometimes a little more willing to accept it from their own teammate than an opponent.
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Postby AdamR » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:52 am

I would say you just shouldn't call a time out. Seeing as you only get a few of them and it might be needed late on the goal line etc.
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Postby NateBrown » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:08 am

This is a good example of one of the difficulties of playing without referees. Namely, that if someone wants to repeatedly cheat, it is difficult to stop them from doing so. I'm not saying we need referees, but that this sort of situation would be much more easily resolved if they were present.

I think, unfortunately, you have to accept that the person in question is going to break the rules regardless of how much you try to point out that he is doing so. He is probably, almost certainly if he is a touring level player, aware that he is breaking the rules so he's probably not doing it out of ignorance. Most people can be "shamed" into playing the right way, but it sounds like this wasn't the case. In your place, I would step through his mark and call foul when the unavoidable contact was initiated. Use his aggressiveness against him as a way to get free breaks off. Obviously this solution is limited, and doesn't address the real problem of "cheating" but if this guy wants to cheat, especially at a fun tournament like Northern Flights, there's not much you can do to stop him. Try to not let his attitude ruin the rest of the tournament.
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Postby Its_derr » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:08 am

I would say you should keep banging through their close mark, and take the first huck oportunity that you have. If they're marking you that closely you will have been fouled on the thow so call it. Either the huck is completed and you have a huge gainer, or you'll have the disc back and the consequences of marking you that closely will become apparent. But this probably isnt the most diplomatic way of solving your problem. :wink:
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Postby NateBrown » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:14 am

Ohh Derry, looks like I beat you to the punch. I also like how you step through to throw the huck while I step through to throw a break in this hypothetical situation. Probably says something about our playing styles or something :wink:
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Re: How to handle this?

Postby Peeters » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:28 am

Richard K wrote:
We check things in, he immediately straddles my pivot again, and calls foul on my first fake (since I clearly can't pivot without contact). I assume he called a foul on me, and I just let it go, let him check it in.


Don't let it go, the foul's on him, not you in this situation...

XVI.H.3.a.3 - Any contact that occurs due to the marker setting up in an illegal position (XIV.B.3) is a foul on the marker.

XIV.B.3 is the Disc-space rule.

Of course, if the guy's being a jerk (there's no way an experienced player like that wouldn't know the rule), this won't result in much happening, so you're probably best off going the route that Derry and co. are suggesting.

You're also to be complemented for taking the high road on this one.

(Waiting to see if this other player will weigh in in their own defence now.)
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Postby Richard K » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:02 pm

Thanks for all the ideas so far. As for the "huck and call foul" idea, I think that's against the following rule:
    XVI.H. Fouls (II.E): It is the responsibility of all players to avoid contact in every way possible.

Also, I feel that calling it over and over would just escalate the situation further (he was visibly annoyed and would not have let me explain or quote the applicable rule), and that would have destroyed enjoyment of the game for everyone.

Greg, good idea asking another opponent to explain the rule, but, there were a few people on that team that didn't seem to know the rules (there was an earlier heated argument over a "check feet" call one of their players made from the other side of the field, and was extremely upset our player made the play while calling herself in... no one near the line thought she was close to being out). I left the possibility of further discussion to my captain. If it happened on one of the teams I captained, I probably would have discussed it with the opposing captain following the point, even if only to agree on differing interpretations.

It was sad, because it was very enjoyable to play defense against them (particularly the guy concerned), but this (probably only) time he was marking me really disturbed me. Fortunately we turned it over and they quickly scored, ending the issue.
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Postby GregS » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:05 pm

AdamR wrote:I would say you just shouldn't call a time out. Seeing as you only get a few of them and it might be needed late on the goal line etc.

XIX.E: If a novice player commits an infraction out of sincere ignorance of the rules, it should be common practice to stop play and explain the infraction.

So, stopping play to explain this wouldn't count as one of your timeouts. Either he really doesn't know the rule, in which case this is justified, or else he does know the rule and is feigning ignorance, in which case patiently explaining it to him can be considered a "moral high ground" way of returning his implicit "screw you".
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Postby Mortakai » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:05 pm

And "no straddling" has been in the rules since the 8th Edition, ~1982.
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Postby rahil_s » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:10 pm

Richard K wrote:there was an earlier heated argument over a "check feet" call


Check feet isn't a call.
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Postby GregS » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:11 pm

rahil_s wrote:
Richard K wrote:there was an earlier heated argument over a "check feet" call

Check feet isn't a call.

I'm gonna guess that was part of the argument...
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Postby GregS » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:17 pm

Richard K wrote:Thanks for all the ideas so far. As for the "huck and call foul" idea, I think that's against the following rule:
    XVI.H. Fouls (II.E): It is the responsibility of all players to avoid contact in every way possible.

Unfortunately, it was impossible to pivot without contact... Not your fault. I think that any minimal contact (e.g. no elbow to the nose as you pivot) you initiate in this situation is acceptable. Remember that the way rules are interpreted varies from low-level league to high-level league and tournaments.
Richard K wrote:Fortunately we turned it over and they quickly scored, ending the issue.

You clearly have a different definition of "fortunate" than I do! :D
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Postby Mortakai » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:18 pm

GregS wrote:
rahil_s wrote:
Richard K wrote:there was an earlier heated argument over a "check feet" call

Check feet isn't a call.

I'm gonna guess that was part of the argument...

Allow me to share a related Haiku that Yoda has recently helped me with on the topic.

Near the line, I am.
"Check feet". Confusing, that is.
Just call me out, please.

There's a lovely 65+ post thread over in the OCUA forums at the moment on the topic of the beauty of check feet.
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