Reckless play - friendly reminder

[GwaiLo]

This is a bit of a rant...but I feel it's something that needs to be said. Not specifically to the person involved, but more importantly, just as a friendly reminder to ALL of us.

So I was subbing in a game earlier this week. I cut upline on a berkley to what was completey open space. As I was approaching the disc, about to make the catch, a poaching defender upfield peels off, and tries to make a D. I don't see him coming, as he's approaching from behind me. He can clearly see both the disc, and me. I suddenly get plowed over, and I guess he stepped on my foot in the process, pinning my foot down, while knocking my body in the other direction. I find myself rolling around on the ground with a very badly rolled ankle. I can't put any weight on it, am sidelined the rest of the game, hobble to the car after the game, am in pain the rest of the night, have a cr@ppy sleep, spend hours going to the walk-in clinic the next day, and then for x-rays, and am booked for an ultrasound on Monday. I'm likely out for a few weeks as a result. Meanwhile, the player that plowed through me, though he did come over and apologize about it (...incidentally, also contested the foul call), probably hasn't thought about it since.

While I certainly don't think his intent was in any way to injure me. I do feel it was a very reckless play on his part. I have heard the same sentiment both from the sideline, as well as bystanders that were there when it happened. The intent of this post, isn't a callout to him. But rather, I feel like this doesn't get discussed enough, and maybe we all just need a reminder from time to time. As I've seen this sport evolve, I do see more and more reckless plays happening. I know there was a lot of talk about this in the Pro leagues and Club divisions over the summer as well. I feel like it's something that we as players need to be more aware of.

My post is meant for the TUC members. We are talking about frisbee here. League frisbee. We're not talking about the Olympics, or Professional sports. We are out there to have a good time, stay fit, develop skills, or any number of reasons. Whatever the reasons are though, we do want to be able to keep playing from week to week.

PLEASE people; don't be reckless!!!! Is making one D really worth potentially injuring someone? Would you appreciate being injured if the roles were reversed? Let's all make an effort to be more aware on the field. Again, this is just supposed to be league play, for fun. Getting hurt is not fun. And, while it sucks to be out for a few weeks, I'm thankful that it wasn't even worse (which it could have been).

I would encourage captains to talk with their teams, and just remind players to always play under control. Safety of others should be put ahead of score...always. My example is just that...an example. I know these things happen all the time. But I felt that a post was in order, so that we can all think about it, and just be more aware when we play.

Thanks for reading

</rant>

[JonB]

Well said, good reminder.
Crappy about the ankle, hope you are back soon. (let me know if your team needs subs in the meantime...)

But I would echo your comments. All of us have watched videos of dramatic layout Ds and catches, and occasionally we might do them ourselves but at this level, and I might argue at any level, we need to stay conscious of the other players on the field. Perhaps let that catch happen despite thinking that you might have had a shot at it if you are not sure you can do it cleanly.

Heal quickly sir.

[nicholasong]

Agreed and well said!

[tlumley]

I'm sure there are (unfortunately) lots more stories like mine. My foot was broken back in 2014 (TUC summer intermediate - not the olympics) when I landed with my full weight on my big toe - ballerina style. The reason I didn't land properly (I was in the endzone) was because of the opponent who decided to get under me as well as pushing my torso sideways in the air - so my big toe impacted, then my body went flying sideways never allowing the rest of my foot to come down.

I don't usually scream and swear a blue streak when I play - but I did at that moment. It was a d-move similar to the previous post - completely reckless and pointless (I clearly had the play on the disc, and my teammates later told me that I even held on for the point despite going into shock from the sudden pain). I was out for multiple weeks, and probably stupidly came back injured, for the love of the game. More recently I also had a player reach across my face for a disc (fat lip, bruised nose) during indoor play - so there are a few dangerous players out there for sure.

[mkukucska89]

I've always thought that the absolute most dangerous play in ultimate is that poach out of the stack on an upline. I've seen so many people taken out by it at all levels of play. It's almost never not a dangerous play situation and I feel like it shouldn't be allowed. How that would be enforced, I don't know but it almost always puts the offensive player in a really vulnerable position.

Hope to see you back on the fields soon

[nantana50]

I agree I have seen a lot of this at many levels of play. The onus has to 100% be on the poach defender as the O handle cut is looking back to catch the disc. In many cases it has seemed to be dangerous for the defender (so I have no idea why there are repeat offenders) but I guess it depends a little on the relative size of the player.

I would definitely chat with the player involved in any near miss, just so they know how dangerous it is. It might actually be ignorance.

All of the above is well put, I just wanted to add my two cents as awareness is key for all.

Get well soon.

[lwswong]

I agree I have seen a lot of this at many levels of play. The onus has to 100% be on the poach defender as the O handle cut is looking back to catch the disc.

I'd argue it's 50% on the handler to recognize the situation and not make that throw. aside from letting the defender know that it's a dangerous play, we need to help handlers to recognize these times so that they don't put their teammates at risk.

but once it's up, i agree that the D has to back off, especially in league play.

[GregS]

This article makes some excellent points on this topic.

[GwaiLo]

This article makes some excellent points on this topic.

Good article! And I for one, would be in favour of the WFDF style, specifically for league. But maybe that's just because I'm old, and more fragile. In Club / Pro level, I understand why people want the more intense game, and are willing to give and take a bit (or even a lot) of contact. But I really don't think it has a place in league play.

[GwaiLo]

Also wanted to clarify, for my specific example (original post), it wasn't a case of incidental contact after a D. It was a case of me being run over, in his attempt at making a D. I'm not sure if I got possession of the disc, and then was run over. Or if him running through me, knocked me (and him) to the ground before I got the disc. To be honest, it's a bit blurry. I didn't even know exactly what happened at the time. I just knew what led to it, and then knew that I got hit, and was on teh ground, and my ankle was killing.

What I do know is that there was no way he could get to that disc without running through me FIRST (not contact after the D). So, I think regardless of USAU or WFDF rules, that would be a clear reckless play.

Either way, it was unnecessary, and put my safety in jeopardy, just to try to make a D on a disc that there really was no play to be made on.

[larrypmac]

The other thing that happens often is that somebody is right there to make a catch and decides to try to avoid contact rather than make the catch. There's a difference between making a catch harder by added pressure and making a catch harder because the receiver fears for their own safety.

Is there anything that captures this in the rules?

[GregS]

The other thing that happens often is that somebody is right there to make a catch and decides to try to avoid contact rather than make the catch. There's a difference between making a catch harder by added pressure and making a catch harder because the receiver fears for their own safety.

Is there anything that captures this in the rules?

As it mentions in the article I posted, in WFDF rules the receiver can get out of the way of a dangerous situation and still call the dangerous play foul, while in USAU there needs to be contact for the call to be made.

Also wanted to clarify, for my specific example (original post), it wasn't a case of incidental contact after a D.

It's possible that the defender thought you'd see them coming and get out of the way, which (per above) is allowed and not a foul under USAU rules. It's more likely that, due to USAU's looser rules in this area, they've become emboldened by similar-but-less-dangerous plays in the past, and pushed this one too far. Either way, I expect that the chances of this incident happening under WFDF rules would be lessened, despite the fact that it's clearly against USAU rules as well.

The most disturbing thing about your story, for me, is that he contested the foul! Presumably based on the not-an-actual-rule "I was going for the disc" defence? Again, something that is much more clearly not a real thing in WFDF rules.

[GwaiLo]

...

The most disturbing thing about your story, for me, is that he contested the foul! Presumably based on the not-an-actual-rule "I was going for the disc" defence? Again, something that is much more clearly not a real thing in WFDF rules.

Well, in his defence on this one...

When it happened, I didn't actually call "foul". I really was more in shock at what happened, and was thinking about my ankle more than anything else. Once I got to the sideline, and just before play was about to resume, one of the girls from his team yelled over to me "was there a call?", to which I said "Uhhh, I'd say so". I found out after the game, that apparently he then contested.

So, technically, there wasn't really a call, since I didn't call it when the play happened (though, I did say yes before play resumed, so....moot point that it wasn't right away?). But I suppose the argument could also be made that "Uhhh, I'd say so" isn't a real call, and I should have just said "yes, foul". Though, I suspect that would have been contested too.

But yeah, I was pretty surprised when I heard that he contested it. Especially since he made a point of coming over after and apologizing to me on the sideline.

[DjDATZ]

The other thing that happens often is that somebody is right there to make a catch and decides to try to avoid contact rather than make the catch. There's a difference between making a catch harder by added pressure and making a catch harder because the receiver fears for their own safety.

Is there anything that captures this in the rules?

As it mentions in the article I posted, in WFDF rules the receiver can get out of the way of a dangerous situation and still call the dangerous play foul, while in USAU there needs to be contact for the call to be made.

I've really disliked that part of the USAU rules. The WFDF rules handle it much better IMO.

[larrypmac]

The other thing that happens often is that somebody is right there to make a catch and decides to try to avoid contact rather than make the catch. There's a difference between making a catch harder by added pressure and making a catch harder because the receiver fears for their own safety.

Is there anything that captures this in the rules?

As it mentions in the article I posted, in WFDF rules the receiver can get out of the way of a dangerous situation and still call the dangerous play foul, while in USAU there needs to be contact for the call to be made.

I've really disliked that part of the USAU rules. The WFDF rules handle it much better IMO.

What holds in TUC summer play?

[GregS]

What holds in TUC summer play?

TUC doesn't use WFDF rules for anything, if that's what you're asking.

[larrypmac]

What holds in TUC summer play?

TUC doesn't use WFDF rules for anything, if that's what you're asking.

So then if a 95-pound girl shies away from the disc to avoid the 200-pound guy from injuring her, it's a turnover unless he hits her in TUC play?

[GregS]

What holds in TUC summer play?

TUC doesn't use WFDF rules for anything, if that's what you're asking.

So then if a 95-pound girl shies away from the disc to avoid the 200-pound guy from injuring her, it's a turnover unless he hits her in TUC play?

That's correct. If she somehow has the presence of mind and the body control to shy away but let him barely graze her on the way by, then she can call a foul...

[haydizzle]

these posts make me so angry.. so many pointless reckless lack-of-self-control injuries that could happen to anyone.
even when smaller fouls or minor dangerous plays happen, people are like its okay its not a big injury, yea you are lucky it wasnt but you arent lucky every time, so stop doing it.



"I had a play on the disc tho"

[dentonmatthew]

Great post by DG.

Hope you're already back to playing at full speed, and if not, soon.

My main take away is recognizing that we are here to play and have fun. Many elements, from reckless play, to foul calls, to disc distribution (playing with 6/7 and not 2), should have different standards than our club counterparts playing for national/continental/world titles.

[GwaiLo]

Great post by DG.

Hope you're already back to playing at full speed, and if not, soon.

My main take away is recognizing that we are here to play and have fun. Many elements, from reckless play, to foul calls, to disc distribution (playing with 6/7 and not 2), should have different standards than our club counterparts playing for national/continental/world titles.

All good. The original post was from October 2016. So, I was out for several weeks, but have been back for quite some time. Having said that, I have had to play with a brace on that ankle ever since. It's never gotten back to full strength / full range of motion. So, that part is pretty crappy, as I never had to use one for regular play prior to that incident.

[larrypmac]

Great post by DG.

Hope you're already back to playing at full speed, and if not, soon.

My main take away is recognizing that we are here to play and have fun. Many elements, from reckless play, to foul calls, to disc distribution (playing with 6/7 and not 2), should have different standards than our club counterparts playing for national/continental/world titles.

All good. The original post was from October 2016. So, I was out for several weeks, but have been back for quite some time. Having said that, I have had to play with a brace on that ankle ever since. It's never gotten back to full strength / full range of motion. So, that part is pretty crappy, as I never had to use one for regular play prior to that incident.

In other words,he's getting old! (Which I can say because I'm much older and wasn't as good as Darren in my best days!)

[GwaiLo]

Great post by DG.

Hope you're already back to playing at full speed, and if not, soon.

My main take away is recognizing that we are here to play and have fun. Many elements, from reckless play, to foul calls, to disc distribution (playing with 6/7 and not 2), should have different standards than our club counterparts playing for national/continental/world titles.

All good. The original post was from October 2016. So, I was out for several weeks, but have been back for quite some time. Having said that, I have had to play with a brace on that ankle ever since. It's never gotten back to full strength / full range of motion. So, that part is pretty crappy, as I never had to use one for regular play prior to that incident.

In other words,he's getting old! (Which I can say because I'm much older and wasn't as good as Darren in my best days!)

LOL! It's true...old age is getting me.

Larry however is like a fine wine. I swear he gets better with age!

[captainrw]

Hi All

Last week in league play we played a team that was super aggressive on D. It's sipped point so changes are on the fly and my defender wouldnt let me off the field by guarding me so hard I couldn't move towards my line. On a number of occasions I had to let up on catches just so I wouldn't get smoked.

On a play with less than a minute to go, our team was down by 5 points and I was close to scoring when disc was tossed to me. I was completely body checked and somehow managed to hold on to the disc. I was in a lot of pain and my back still hurts a weak later. Instead of apologizing, asking if I was alright ,or attempt to help me up he started to count stalls in my face.

I just don't get it. This is supposed to be fun. I understand accidents but players that don't know how to tone it down and are dangerous to others on the field should be kicked out of the league.

And that's my rant

[JonB]

Ron,

I am sorry this happened.
please have your captain write an incident report so the league convenor or staff can respond.

We do need to help some people figure out SOTG, and that this is Ultimate, and not other sports.

[haydizzle]

yea id throw them a harsh reality check spirit rating and email them after the after they are cooled off

[gkitch]

@captainrw & @haydizzle

Last time a similar incident happened to me and the defender called foul after knocking me out of the way, rather than the whole “contest” and back and forth I called him out on it and told him how I really felt. That was the last time he came anywhere near me for the rest of that game and hopefully carried forward to his next opponents too.

This situation is one of the downfalls of the whole spirited resolution process. I’m not condoning fighting or anything like that, but low spirit scores aren’t enough when it comes to dangerous play. You gotta call it out when you see it/ experience it.

[mkukucska89]

Just a reminder that when captains are filling out their score sheet at the end of each game there is a section where you can choose to report an incident. We review every incident sent in and a dangerous play is definitely worthy of report. We want to be tough on repeat offenders but can't do anything from an office perspective unless these things are reported to us.