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TPL Season XV - Video Games

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TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby JonB » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:28 am

Hey all,

Already week five and no BBS chatter - guess we have all moved on to other forms of communication.

Still hoping for some MVP stats from @BC but we shall see.

Thought I would post some of the conversation regarding Receiver Errors and Throwaways here for posterity.

First, the standard rules:
3. Stat tracking should follow these guidelines:
a. A player may not get a 2A and a G on the same point. (the program does this for you) The only case where two points can be scored at one time is a callahan (D + G)
b. A turnover is ALWAYS EITHER a thrower error or a receiver error.
c. It is a thrower's responsibliity to put the disc in a place where a receiver can get it but a defender cannot. This must take into account the ability of the intended receiver. To not do so (and result in a turnover) is considered a thrower error.
d. It is a receiver's responsibility to read and catch a disc, but allowance can be made for the receiver's ability.
e. A "D" is generally called when the defender touches the disc, but use your judgement. A stall down can be a D, as can a positionally good D challenging for a disc in the air, which leads to a receiver not catching it.
NOTE 1: Get the names of all players before the game starts! It can help to jump in on the huddle.
NOTE 2: Try to scorekeep alongside the other scorekeeper. You can help each other in case of quick turnovers or in making rulings on TE vs REs. You can also review with the players around you.
NOTE 3: Veteran scorekeepers find it necessary to call out the play-by-play actively as you go (e.g. "Johnny to Sally", "Sally to Jill") to help you to remember the 2nd assists. (It also helps to remember people's names!)


WANT TO HIGHLIGHT C. and D.

Generally, a turnover is a Throwaway.
Start from that premise.
If it is D'ed, then almost always a throwaway as the thrower is expected to put it where the defender can't get it.
It needs to be fairly obviously a drop. I assume that most of us can catch if the throw is decent. If the person has to layout to make the catch but drops it, that is a thrower error (Unless it is Krystal laying out - she is supposed to catch everything)
Know your receiver. What can she or he typically catch? Just because they touched it doesn't mean it was catchable.

For example:
One game last week both Jane Logan and Bill Banang were credited with 3 drops. I played that game but hadn't looked at stats til now. Considering Jane's and Bill's abilities, I would consider it unlikely that they both dropped 3 passes. It is possible, but unlikely. It seems that the weight should have shifted more to Thrower error for some of these.

Talk with the other stat-keepers during the game and get opinions for questionable ones.
Another example: I was watching a game last week where Kramer dropped a pass in the endzone. I considered it a throw away even though it is Kramer and he catches quite well as there was zero rotation on the disc and it might have been on a 90 degree angle when it hit his hands.

So, TL:DR

More throwaways than drops.

DArio:
Is it acceptable to give a drop (I consider it a receiver error vs a drop) to a receiver if they heavily misread a throw that they would have caught if they hadn't greatly misread? (given their abilities of course) ?

Gareth:
think that’s a great question..
And I think it should all depend on the person. I think talking with the other 3 stat keepers to get their opinion is also a good idea
Come to some consensus about what you think it should be
I think we can all agree that if a player has to layout for a disk and it’s dropped, it is definitely a throwaway, even if the player is like Dario and catches all

I expect "good" players to catch discs that require a layout. those are actually better throws since it's not defendable.

Norm:
I always go with this question "SHOULD that person have caught the disc" taking into account all factors, disc placement, skill level, etc.

The extreme example I give is when someone is cutting deep, a huck goes up, and the cutter decides to stop running for it, when they could have clearly caught the disc. By most people's definition, that's a throwaway, but in my opinion it's a receiver error. There's a reason why we changed it to "receiver error" from "drop" way back in season 1-2.

if you think a person should have caught a disc and didn't, then it's a receiver error, a throw goes up and the receiver shouldn't have caught the disc and then didn't, it's a throwaway

this is coming from a handler who has the most throwaways.

Krystal:
A TA and an RE?
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=304687780137201

Misiu:

I would like to chip in with my personal take, since this is an interesting discussion. Obviously this is subjective so add the "I think" or "In my opinion"s in as necessary if I missed some. Blah, preamble, blah - Thunderbirds are go:

If the disc is turned over, the only questions I think you need to ask is did the receiver make a mistake and if so how difficult would it be to not make that mistake.

I typically lean on the side that a receiver would need to make a mistake I would not expect them to make in that situation %90 of the time before I assign them a drop. All other times it's the thrower's error, because they are the one who has full control of the situation. They make the call of whether the throw goes up and the onus is on them to understand the full context of the situation - including matchups, positioning, skill levels, wind, uppity-ness of the peanut gallery, etc... The receiver has no control over anything except their positioning and their hands. If the thrower is deciding to throw something that has less than %90 (or whatever percentage they are aiming for) of being caught from what they observe, that's on them. If they missed a factor in the context that messed up their internal calculations, that's on them. Obviously, if they mess up technically, that's also on them.

Essentially, I think the thrower is responsible for every factor involved in the catch - including the defender's behaviour and the receiver's expectations - except for the act of catching itself. Norm's already mentioned some reasonable cases against this, but I think part of playing with a variety of skill levels is that the thrower is responsible for making sure communication with the receiver is solid and even something like throwing a huck that the receiver doesn't think they can catch, and so they give up, is their responsibility. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision, and the throw can easily fit into "good ultimate"; but I think a thrower can make a "good decision" and it's still their fault because they assumed something about the receiver, like how tired they are, how well they can read a disc, or how easily intimidated they are by a fast throw, that isn't true.

TL;DR - every turnover is the thrower's fault in some way. For an RE you need be satisfied that the receiver is more at fault than the thrower, and ideally the receiver's mistake should not have been caused by the thrower's actions.

Not sure that ramble stayed on one train of thought... Like I said, it's an interesting discussion and trying to codify a previously abstract process is more subject to change than I thought.
"Disc through the heart, and you're to blame"
Jon "Bon Jovi" Brandt
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Re: TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby mcolphon » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:33 am

I'm trying to hit the like button for the last post but it seems to be missing...
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Re: TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby mjanssen » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:18 pm

It's like raaaaaaiiiinnnnnnn on your wedding day...
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Re: TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby larrypmac » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:14 am

Is there a link to the spreadsheet with the salaries?
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Re: TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby linaus » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:51 am

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Re: TPL Season XV - Video Games

Postby grahamh » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:14 am

JonB wrote:Hey all,

Already week five and no BBS chatter - guess we have all moved on to other forms of communication.

Still hoping for some MVP stats from @BC but we shall see.


I've got you Jon! I tend to keep track of the weekly stats from the score keeping app (GM'ing habits die hard). What I don't know is if any of the players below were subbing when they put up their MVP stat line:

Week 1:
Ron Siu ($59,000) - 2 goals, 8 assists, 1 second assist, 4 D, 4 TA, 0 RE
Barbara Huang ($49,500) - 7 goals, 1 assist, 1 second assist, 2 D, 1 TA, 0 RE
Kyra Healey ($49,500) - 5 Goals, 3 assists, 2 second assists, 2 D, 1 TA, 1 RE

Week 2:

Greg Kramer ($82,000) - 11 goals, 4 assists, 3 second assists, 1 D, 2 TA, 0 RE
Meghan Janssen ($49,000) - 8 goals, 3 assists, 1 second assist, 1 D, 4 TA, 0 RE

Week 3:
Sam Watt ($62,500) - 4 goals, 7 assists, 3 second assists, 1 D, 1 TA, 1 RE
Dong-Ling Chen ($55,000) - 8 goals, 1 assists, 0 second assists, 2 D, 0 TA, O RE

Week 4:
John Huang ($52,000) - 3 goals, 3 assists, 3 second assists, 4 D, 2 TA, 0 RE
Meghan Janssen ($55,500) - 5 goals, 3 assists, 3 second assists, 2 D, 1 TA, 0 RE

Week 5:
Keegan Lee-Newbury ($72,500) - 6 goals, 5 assists, 2 second assists, 2 D, 1 TA, 0 RE
Kyra Healey ($51,500) - 6 goals, 4 assists, 0 second assists, 0 D, 0 TA, 0 RE

Week 6:
Jamie Dempster (58,500): 1 goal, 7 assists, 3 second assists, 4 D, 3 TA, 0 RE
Kyra Healey ($51,000): 4 goals, 2 assists, 2 second assists, 3 D, 0 TA, 0 RE

One more notable stat for today:
Loat is lapping the field when it comes to touches per game at 36.2 After him comes Lucas McKeown and Kramer at 26.8, Taylor Chung at 26.2, Jamie at 26.0, Keiran Bol and Nat Wong at 25.3 and Sanjay Parker at 25.1. No one else has broken 25 touches per game.
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