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3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

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3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby JonB » Fri May 15, 2015 3:08 pm

Hey all,

Question came up in Captains' meeting last night regarding how teams can match up when the Offense decides to go either 3 /4 or 4/3

According to the CUC Championship rules the defence needs to match exactly, and cannot replace a man for a woman or vice versa. They would be forced to play with six players, 3/3, if they did not have enough of whichever gender they were short.

https://canadianultimate.com/cuc-series#Rules%20Docs

This is, however, only specified for CUC Championships. There doesn't seem to be anything in the 11th Edition, or within TUC's rules that specify.

This is probably something that TUC should clarify. All it lists is that there needs to be a minimum of 6 players, with a maximum of 4 from one gender.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby dentonmatthew » Fri May 15, 2015 4:06 pm

If you are going to go there. Might as well go the whole way, and clarify a number of ratio related items.
- if team A has 3 ladies, can team B play 3/4 thereby forcing team A to play one player short
- there has been similar debate as to whether a team can do the above if Team A has only 4 ladies, forcing them to play without subs.
- in the above examples, the situation could be the same for men. An example might be Team A has 4 men only, and Team B has 4 women... What happens there?

There is a point in here between what is the "nice" thing to do, vs what do you "HAVE" to do per the rules. It would be nice If it is all clarified for the playing public, especially bearing in mind that (for the most part) league is supposed to be about having fun.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby JonB » Fri May 15, 2015 4:13 pm

I agree. There is a lack of clarity around this question.

Last night Loat suggested that a team without 4 men could add a 4th woman when the offense played 4/3 but wouldn't be able to reverse that, playing with 4 men when only having 3 women and the offense went 3/4.

This doesn't seem right to me but I didn't think the Captains meeting was the place for this conversation about gender equality. I would appreciate the board or leadership clarifying this.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby chellezoom » Fri May 15, 2015 10:01 pm

Jon, I think that the captain's meeting would have been THE place to have that exact discussion.

For me, I typically show no mercy if a team can't field the required response to the O line - 4/3, 3/4 whatever.
You signed up, you know the basic rules for fielding a line... thems be the rules.

That being said, I agree that it depends on the time/place/league... comp vs rec is a different animal in terms of experience and knowledge of rules. As well, if a fellow captain would notify in advance that they'd be short I'd probably agree to go 6's and be spirited, especially if they were on the verge of a forfeit. Nobody wants to cancel a game over #'s.

I'm not totally cold hearted, I swear.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby JonB » Fri May 15, 2015 11:10 pm

Chellezoom, who are you?

I don't disagree, the captains meeting should be the place for this discussion but it isn't set up for that. Everyone is just waiting for discs and not really engaged.

And I would rule the same way about numbers. And I am cold hearted. My issue is that it is not clearly stated anywhere and the limited discussion at the meeting suggested that a woman could play in place of a man in a 4/3 scenario. So we need clarity.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby AdamR » Sat May 16, 2015 12:26 pm

Hey Jon,

From what I understand, TUC is swamped right now and not responding to the BBS, so give them a little time.

Anyway, my take on this is that the rules do seem to indicate that you cannot replace a man with a woman (as suggested by the person in the captain's meeting) or vise versa, so if you do not have 4 woman and 4 men at the game you risk playing 3 / 3 if the offense sets a line that you cannot match.

In other words, although the minimum you need to field a team is 6 players (4 of one gender), the minimum you need to ensure that you never play 3 / 3 is 8 players, 4 of each gender.

HOWEVER, there is always the captain's rule which allows things to be changed if both captains agree.

Also, I found this link from Kingston ultimate that may help clear things up http://www.kingstonulti.ca/summer_league/rules.html

"(the pulling team) can never have any more players of either gender on the field than the receiving team has chosen. So if a team only has two women, and the other team is receiving and chooses to play 4:3, the team with two women can play 4:2. If the receiving team chooses to play 3:4, the team with two women must play 3:2."
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby JonB » Sat May 16, 2015 1:20 pm

Adam, I agree with everything you are saying, and I am not particularly concerned or confused by this issue. I simply would like many of us to come to the same understanding so that no one, particularly chellezoom, has to feel cold hearted about sticking to a set of agreed upon rules.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby inertia » Sat May 16, 2015 1:49 pm

Hi,
I was the one who asked the question at the captain's meeting. I thought the timing was apt since the presentation was at the moment where Loat was taking about matching lines.
My two teams ran into situations last year where this came up, so I thought the captains meeting was the right place for TUC to clarify something that you won't find in the USAU rules.
In one instance my team brought 4 guys and 5 women to the game. The guys were playing savage and one went down with an injury part way through the game. The other captain wanted us to play a player down when they lined up 4 males.
I think we disagreed and ended up playing 3M:4F for the rest of the game since we didn't have a clear direction.
The other situation was with a different team where we brought 8M and 3F to the game. Our opponents 6M and 5F. Our women were very tired from playing savage the whole first half, and our opponents started playing 3M:4F in the second half. We played 6vs7 for many points that second half because we couldn't field 4 women and our guys were sitting on the sidelines more than they were playing. Both teams didn't get full spirit scores that week...

Most of the time, teams are very cool about playing 6v6 at the start of the game when we are waiting for team mates who are stuck in traffic and trying to get to the pitch. I just wanted to ask the question with all the captains present in order to make future sideline discussions between captains easier.

I think captains can figure it out, and make decisions based on respect and fair play, when these situations arise in the future.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby guzzwell » Tue May 19, 2015 12:32 pm

chellezoom wrote:For me, I typically show no mercy if a team can't field the required response to the O line - 4/3, 3/4 whatever.
You signed up, you know the basic rules for fielding a line... thems be the rules.


I HATE to agree with Michelle, ever... EVER. But it seems that TUC's rule is pretty clear:

"All TUC outdoor leagues (unless otherwise specified) are 4-3 mixed gender. Teams are encouraged to play both lineups - 4 men & 3 women or 3 men & 4 women - the pulling team must match the receiving team's ratio." - http://tuc.org/rules/outdoor

The key word is MUST.

Showing up with enough players to play is part of showing up with SOTG.

By changing the summer playoff substitution policy to allow for 7 females including subs (and other measures including the women's committee), TUC is encouraging teams to field a 3:4 (M:F) lineup more often and get women more involved in the game, so teams should be prepared for this.

I get it that stuff happens and sometimes teams are showing up short for reasons beyond their control, but the team showing up with enough players to play 4:3 or 3:4 (M:F) should not be penalized, in spirit score or otherwise, for wanting to play with either ratio.

Again, I do not like agreeing with chellezoom, but sometimes...
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby MaxPower » Tue May 19, 2015 4:24 pm

I have been researching the rules regarding gender ratios; I was somewhat surprised to learn that gender ratios are not actually covered is the 11th Edition USA Ultimate rules. The closest I was able to find that discussed this issue was the CUC rules that Jon mentioned. In the end, it is up to each league/tournament to define their own rule regarding gender ratios in mixed ultimate.

Guzzwell is correct that this is already covered in the outdoor rules:

"Teams are encouraged to play both lineups - 4 men & 3 women or 3 men & 4 women - the pulling team must match the receiving team's ratio."

That means that if a team cannot do so (i.e. the receiving team is calling 4 ladies and the pulling team only has 3 ladies) then the pulling team must play shorthanded. My apologies for not being aware of this at the captain's meeting.

That being said, if captains can come to an agreement regarding the gender ratios they are allowed to do so. In the absence of an agreement then we go to what the rule states.

If/when this situation were to occur, we hope that teams/captains/players would be able to come to a mutual understanding and do their best to ensure a positively spirited experience at their game.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby cdilla » Wed May 20, 2015 10:57 am

What is not clear in the TUC guidelines (but is found in other organizations) is that the fundamental principle behind the spirit of the game is to follow the golden rule: "treat others as you would want to be treated."

Ultimate Canada sums it up quite well:

"102 Spirit of the Rules: Flying disc sports have traditionally relied upon a spirit of sportsmanship which places the responsibility of fair play on the players themselves. Highly competitive and committed play is encouraged, but never at the expense of the bond of mutual respect between players, adherence to the agreed upon rules of any event, nor the basic enjoyment of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate adverse conduct from the playing field. The responsibility for the maintenance of this spirit rests on each player's shoulders." WFDF Rules: Article 1 General 102


If my team showed up with a full team of players, but the other team only had 3 girls - technically I would be in the right to play 4:3 girls to guys, forcing them to play down (for my teams advantage).

But I would imagine the Dude from the Big Lebowski saying "You're not wrong, you're just an poopie face"

Having been a captain for many many years, sh%t happens. People get stuck in traffic, they get sick/injured/lost...... To penalize an entire team might be following the "rules" but it sure isn't following the golden rule.

Especially in Rec. league, when most players are playing to have some fun after a long day of work and sometimes a lengthy commute in rushhour traffic to make it out.

So I respectfully disagree that lining up a 4;3 ratio to knowingly gain an advantage over an opponent who is unable to match is a spirited play. We need to remind ourselves that we play to have fun, and our fun should not be at the expense of anyone else.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby blank_1982 » Wed May 20, 2015 11:58 am

I will firstly admit that I'm a bit of a stickler for rules and don't generally love the idea of people not following and/or not knowing the rules and then expecting others to mitigate their lack of rules following/knowledge claiming it is "unspirited" to not do so.

I definitely see two sides of the lack of spirit:
1) A team that shows up shorthanded which I guess, based on the rules of requiring gender matching by the defense and TUCs encouragement of women's playing, is actually fewer than 8 (4M&4F) players, is unspirited in not following the rules and in not giving your opponents a game under the rules.
2) A team that sees another team in an unfortunate situation and decides to exploit that is unspirited in the "poopie face" style of things.

I definitely think that the balance between those two can depend on a number of factors, I just hate to see that first side of the coin ignored.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby gkitch » Wed May 20, 2015 12:46 pm

A few summers ago I played for a team that ended the year with a savage roster. Problem A, was a "poopie faced" captain who turned off three girls early in the season. They never returned, leaving us with a savage roster for all of August. Had another team tried to pull gender matching, we likely would have just forfeited the game right there in fairness to the girls who stuck it out. So there are rules, and in comp games or tournaments you should have a roster, but in intermediate their needs to be understanding.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby blank_1982 » Wed May 20, 2015 1:05 pm

I do agree that there needs to be understanding in individual situations

With that being said... A team shows up with 8 Females and 3 Males. Are the males savage or short-handed?

I think one of the big issues is the commonly held idea that 4M:3F is the "standard" lineup and that 3M:4F is the "other" lineup. Don't get me wrong, I've captained teams before and know how hard it can be to get females.

I don't know you Geoff (gkitch), so please take my next comment not as a personal attack but as a follow-up to my comments on the two sides of the spirit issue.

You acknowledge that your team's savageness was the results of a "poopie faced" captain. Had another team tried to pull the gender matching thing and you forfeited, whether they were doing it just to be "poopie faced" or because of some other reason (injured guys comes to mind), it is your team that created the situation where one of the two acceptable lineups was untenable for you. Not at all saying the other team is blameless, just saying that yours definitely isn't blameless.

Hopefully a conversation would have occurred before just putting 4 females on the line and yelling "Match our ratio!" that likely would have lead to some kind of understanding I'd hope.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby gkitch » Wed May 20, 2015 2:02 pm

That special captain that I was referring to eventually got the boot and hasn't been seen since (which is a good thing for the game). It was quite the socialization experiment seeing a quiet team member yelling for him to leave an never come back. But my point is that when you get into the mid-or lower tier on intermediate, those conversations need to happen before the game. Generally they do. But getting to the point where people actually leave and don't come back totally defeats the golden rule of where we all started.

But then again, if you're talking comp leagues or tournament play, then there's no mercy. I'm the first to strategize about tactical advantage and how to wear another team down in order to earn the W.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby blank_1982 » Wed May 20, 2015 2:11 pm

It seems like we're quite in agreement on the best thing for all is an upfront conversation before the game even begins to make sure everyone is comfortable with what's about to happen.

It would have been amazing seeing that quiet team member yelling at him. Sounds like a truly special captain to push someone like that to the point of yelling.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby gkitch » Wed May 20, 2015 2:20 pm

blank_1982 wrote:ItIt would have been amazing seeing that quiet team member yelling at him. Sounds like a truly special captain to push someone like that to the point of yelling.


Let's remove the title of captain, and replace with "the guy who couldn't find a team, so he paid the registration fee then trolled the WANT TO PLAY BOARD until he had one"

Nevertheless, that was the first and last season for a few players.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby dentonmatthew » Fri May 22, 2015 6:47 pm

Seems like a lot of general agreement but unfortunately not a rule.
I'm in favour of "be nice" because this is league, I'm here to have fun.

But I have seen it too many times where, as noted above, the opponent is using a positive rule (matching 3:4, 4:3) to its worst effect.

I'm all about using CUC rules in tournament play, but I would hope for better guidance from TUC in this case. You end up, if one player is so inclined, arguing about an interpretation of a rule that doesn’t exist.

I frankly think a "rule " should go something like:
- teams should have sufficient players at each game to play points at a 3:4 or 4:3 ratio. It is considered poor spirit to field a team with less than 4 players of each gender.
- however, during league play, it is also considered poor spirit to put and opponent at a competitive disadvantage by selecting a gender ratio which would force a gender to play either short or without substitute.
- for more complex situations, captains are reminded of the captains rule, and encouraged to use it so all players have fun.

It ain't ideal, but I think we have to dig a little deeper, if only to encourage a few overly competitive types to remember the purpose of league, principally, is fun.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby GregS » Mon May 25, 2015 12:57 pm

dentonmatthew wrote:- however, during league play, it is also considered poor spirit to put and opponent at a competitive disadvantage by selecting a gender ratio which would force a gender to play either short or without substitute.

Spirit is a very tricky thing. If a team was expecting to have 5 or more women and somebody was suddenly unable to come at the last minute such that a sub was unable to be located (for me, "last minute" here would be around 5pm or later; if someone bails at 2pm you've got loads of time to try to find a sub), then making them play savage is harsh.

But if a team simply can't be bothered to get a 5th woman, is it really poor spirit for my team to take advantage of that by making them play 3/4? If so, is it also poor spirit for my team to take advantage of a team that doesn't have very good flicks by forcing flick? Poor spirit to play zone against a team that doesn't know how to play against a zone? Poor spirit to take advantage of height or speed mismatches?

And I have to show good spirit towards my own team too. If I have 6 guys and 7 women show up (which has happened), my women (and some of my men!) are going to be pretty unimpressed if we don't play 3/4 at least some of the time, regardless of what the other team might think.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby muskokajoe » Tue May 26, 2015 8:27 am

I love the self-regulating effect of the pulling team matching. If you score, you might be slightly handicapped by the rules.

My team (8M\7F) played against a (5M\2F) team last week - we lost, but playing 4M3F against their 4M2F (or 5M2F vs 5M2F) shifted it from a rout to a "tolerably respectable" loss.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby Jed » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:28 pm

dentonmatthew wrote:I frankly think a "rule " should go something like:
- Don't be a dick


Fixed that for you.

Showing up with a short roster may be a result of a lack of care / effort on the part of the captain; or it may be that stuff just happens at the last minute, and circumstances don't allow for spots to be filled. To chalk it up to poor spirit is a stretch IMO.

Forcing players to play savage increases the likelihood of injury. To do so just because you can, or to gain an advantage, is dickish. I wouldn't suggest that you totally ignore your team's playing time, but try to have some consideration. If you have too many ladies or men, maybe spot them a player or two?
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby ashunter » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:29 pm

I've captained a few teams, and I know how last minute bails can happen to deflate both sides of your roster. But as a captain, you have a duty to both teams to make sure that everyone who shows up gets their time on the field. So if I only have 5M/3F, and the other team shows up with 7M/7F, why should I make them sit their women more often when they recieve? If I showed up with 3M/5F, would I expect their men to sit off to match all the time?

The key thing to remember here is that you only match when you pull. Most of the time that means you just scored a point. If you just scored, the other team can't be dominating you that badly.

As a captain, if it's 5 minutes to game time and my team doesn't have an optimal matching line, it's my responsibility to get the game started on time, with whatever I have. If that means I'm playing 6 on 7, it isn't the other teams fault for picking a specific gender ratio, it's my teams responsibility to have a deep enough roster.

Once again, yes unexpected things happen. But I can't hold it against the other team if they want to have a full lineup. So suck it up and play. And if you're playing my team, there's a decent chance that your shorthanded line will eke out a win anyways.

If the other captain thinks that the game will be mismatched because of the lineup, and wants to offer to switch things up, so we get a closer (and longer) game, then kudos. But to expect that of her or him isn't spirited. I don't know his roster, who's new, who's injured, who's recovering. So instead of standing around and debating this, get the best line you can on the field, and start playing.

My favorite stories from mismatch games. The time we played a team that only had 5 players able to make it, 4M/1F, who offered to default right away, or play if we wanted to. We said we'd play and they ended up trouncing us. Or that time our opponent was 4M/4F and we were 6M/7F and they were upset that we kept putting on 4F, even though they were outscoring us 2 to 1.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby JonB » Wed May 10, 2017 9:06 pm

As summer league is about to begin, wanted to remind us of this:


"All TUC outdoor leagues (unless otherwise specified) are 4-3 mixed gender. Teams are encouraged to play both lineups - 4 men & 3 women or 3 men & 4 women - the pulling team must match the receiving team's ratio." - http://tuc.org/rules/outdoor

The key word is MUST.

Showing up with enough players to play is part of showing up with SOTG. - Andrew Guzzwell.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby GregS » Thu May 11, 2017 11:30 am

JonB wrote:As summer league is about to begin, wanted to remind us of this:


"All TUC outdoor leagues (unless otherwise specified) are 4-3 mixed gender. Teams are encouraged to play both lineups - 4 men & 3 women or 3 men & 4 women - the pulling team must match the receiving team's ratio." - http://tuc.org/rules/outdoor

The key word is MUST.

Showing up with enough players to play is part of showing up with SOTG. - Andrew Guzzwell.

Of course, as captains will find out at the meetings, it's no longer always the receiving team that chooses.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby Jim Lim » Sun May 14, 2017 1:58 pm

+1 to what Andrew H. wrote.
In my experience having captained for many years, the "you are poor-spirited for not playing short a player because we don't have enough players (of either gender)" card that gets played is most often used when it benefits the other team because they didn't have enough players and fear losing the game. That being said, it should depend on the situation and flexibility/spirit comes foremost in making the decision before the game. If it's traffic and they have people on their way, or they have a recent injury, or it's a long weekend... those unforeseen situations happen, and so we play 6 v. 6 or whatever works out in everybody's interest.

But teams who purposely make a small roster to get lots of PT, and then end up without enough players to avoid playing savage or being short... then they should think about that possibility at the start of the season. In the past, when I know that the people on my team that season are not regular weekly attenders, then I make a bigger team of 20+ players to ensure we always bring enough to a game - it's OUR duty to bring enough players and be on time so that the other team gets as full a deserving game as they rightfully should. The years I know my team has fully committed players every week, then we only carry a 15+ roster.

If our team ever shows up without enough people, then the onus is on us to do the right thing and apologetically offer to the other team that we will play short if they other team wishes. Spirit dictates that we have not met the conditions of being part of the league and we should not try to guilt the other team into being accommodating. Most often, when offered the option, the other team will then, in kind, be courteous and offer to play short until the rest of our team shows up. I will also offer that if we can't field a full team by 15 or 20 minutes from the start time, then we will offer to forfeit the game and play it out for fun if they want to match us or play with an extra person. As well, if it's a case of 3M/6F that we have that night, then we should be able to put on 3M/4F, or even 2M/4F, without being guilted in any way because the other team only has 4F. (I would never line up 4F if they only have 3F, there. That's being a jerk). And as someone else pointed out, if we are choosing the lineup, then we have just been scored on; if it's a close game then we only have that option when they have scored. Otherwise, they are probably trouncing us so does it really matter to them. By us offering to play short against their full line-up, they get the PT they expected. To me, the ultimate rule of spirit is that no player or team gains any advantage by knowingly manipulating/breaking/ignoring the rules of the game.

A caveat, if it is a tourney or Competitive league, then one should live with the fact you don't have enough players, whatever the reason. It's pretty selfish to show up without being prepared and ask others to make sacrifices. Would you go to Nats with a savage roster and then ask the other team to play with 6 so that you can have a sub or if you lose one to injury?! As Greg said, it's like not forcing flick or not playing zone or not hucking because the other team can't defend it. Should I slow down because my defender can't cover me? For sure, if it's recreational or a Sunday pickup, and you're pretty confident you're going to win, then absolutely turn the game into a more friendly, upbeat, help-them-learn by playing a bit above their game. Sadly, I will say that in the past few years, the "it's okay to showboat and trash talk and trounce the other team because it's widely accepted at the upper touring level" has leaked into the upper intermediate and competitive league nights such that it's gotten ugly when they showed up with 7 players against a team with 15 players, and made it a vendetta because the other team wouldn't play short. Those players/teams have lost sight of what league should be about - enjoying the game with a wide variety of player levels, nurturing the greatness of the sport's spirit-guided mantra, and building community in the league. If they want to jostle, trash talk, spike the disc, and take the attitude of "I'll just keep breaking the rules and you can just keep calling me on it", then they would do the sport better if they fed their egos at tourneys and practice nights.

But since human beings aren't all made of the same cloth, the League should definitely clearly interpret the rule and provide context and guidance as to how the rule should be applied and negotiated. To repeat, I think a lot of it would be solved if the team that doesn't have enough of a roster is the one who humbly offers to play and accept whatever line-up the other team wants.
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Re: 3/4 4/3 ratios - or no, a woman can't play as a man.

Postby mkukucska89 » Wed May 17, 2017 3:56 pm

Hey all,

Chiming in with a staff perspective here. As Jon and others have noted, the rule specifically states that the opposing team MUST match. Whether or not that is enforced by the other team is not a rules issue (captains clause) but a spirit issue. Further to that, part of spirit of the game is knowing the rules and should the rules state you must show up with enough players to field a line of either 3/4 or 4/3, the short team should be the team considered unspirited, not the team enforcing the rules. That being said, we like to believe that teams will display some courtesy in this regard, especially in the intermediate leagues.

To cover my bases here, this is not a binding ruling or anything you should be quoting when you're out on the fields. I can see that the rule can be open to interpretation, especially when conversations regarding SOTG get involved.

In short, bring at least four ladies to the fields! There are plenty of women that would love to sub in an extra game here and there and the BBS is your friend in that regard. Be aware that should you not have enough ladies that you could be put in a situation where you have to play short.
mkukucska89
TUC Programs and Events Manager
 
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