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Suggestion for outdoor speedpoint rule

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Suggestion for outdoor speedpoint rule

Postby GregS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:18 am

I've got this idea for how to make speedpoint work really well outdoors. I've mentioned it to a few people, and most agree that it sounds workable. I even tried it a little bit at a pickup game last year. But, my schedule doesn't really permit me to get out to pickup very often, so someone suggested that I write up the rule, and others could try it out in my absence. I hear that turnout has been pretty good at pickup this summer, so maybe it can be tried there, and results reported back. If it goes really well, we might suggest to TUC that they implement it for our outdoor speedpoint leagues in the fall and spring.

The basic idea behind this is to have a way for teams to switch ends every point, evening out the effects of the wind, etc., while playing the fast-moving continuous style that many of us enjoy in the indoor season. This would essentially replace rule 5 in the TUC outdoor speedpoint rules, though other rules there would need to be altered to take this into account, if it were to be accepted.

a) When a team scores, the receiving player acknowledges that he/she has scored a goal. The team that just scored is now on defence and has 16 seconds* to pull the disc to the offence. Neither the offence nor defence needs to signal readiness for the pull to be made (unlike 11th edition rule VIII.B.3), and there are no rules about positioning of players (unlike 11th edition rule VIII.B.4).
b) The pull may be made from the point of the goal, or from the front of the end zone directly in front of where the goal was scored.
c) If the pull is not made within the time allowed, the receiving team gains possession of the disc at the pulling team's brick mark (i.e. 20 yards from the end zone they are attacking).
d) The pull may be made by the player that scored the point, or they may place the disc on the ground for another player from the same team (regardless of whether they were on the field at the time of the goal) to pick up and pull. If the player that scored the goal begins walking the disc to the front of the end zone, they must pull it. The disc cannot be thrown by the player that scored the goal to a second player that intends to make the pull; any throw made after the point is acknowledged is considered to be the pull. (During the learning phase, players used to the standard outdoor game may be excused if they throw the disc in the direction of the goal line after scoring; this might be considered to be their acknowledgement of the goal.)
e) No player on the receiving team can intentionally interfere with either the pull or a player bringing the disc to the front of the end zone for the pull; doing so is a foul and resets the count. While players on the receiving team must make all reasonable efforts to quickly get out of the way of a pull or a player bringing the disc to the front of the end zone, it is also the responsibility of the puller to avoid any contact. If a pull hits an player on the receiving team who was unaware of the throw or unable to avoid the path of the disc, the result is not NOT a turnover and the receiving team takes possession of the disc wherever it comes to lie. If a pull is dropped or hits a player who was aware of the throw and simply failed to avoid contact, then it is a turnover and the throwing team regains possession, as per 11th edition rule VIII.B.8.
f) During the time between a goal being scored and the pull being made, the disc is considered live, so player substitutions may be made as per rule 7**. In particular, it is acceptable for a player to sub in solely for the purpose of pulling, and then sub back off, providing that both substitutions are done legally and the pull is made within the time limit.
g) Standard rules about out-of-bounds pulls, including where the receiving team takes possession and time limits for putting the disc into play, apply.

*16 seconds is used here, because the stall counts in league speedpoint games are to 8. If the teams trying this agree to leave stall counts at 10, the time allowed to pull should be 20 seconds.
** Because substitutions will often be made during the "pull time" immediately following goals, it is recommended that the "designated substitution area" of rule 7 be expanded, perhaps even allowing substitutions to be made anywhere along either sideline. People playing the cup in a zone might also appreciate this. :)

If anyone has questions, suggestions, or any other feedback, don't hesitate to post it. Or, if it's highly insulting, PM me. :D
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Postby GwaiLo » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:36 am

so....does the receiving team have to get onside within the 16 seconds? Or in your version, can they setup anywhere on the field proper?

Also, who counts the 16 seconds?
What if there is a dispute or disagreement? (I assume once both teams agree to whatever happened, the counting starts, but I can see some teams starting to count, while another team argues, and the counting doesn't stop, etc.)

Interesting concept though. Definitely would keep the game moving like indoor speedpoint does. I'm always baffled at how much time ends up getting w asted between points in outdoor regular point games.
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Postby jed » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:00 am

I'd suggest a kind of reverse marking rule. Counting can only begin once all opponents have cleared the 10ft radius around the thrower / disc. Audible warnings given at 20, 10, and 5 seconds.

I wouldn't include the restrictions on walking having to pull if you start to walk it to the line, etc. Even passing the disc should be allowed, within the endzone. As long as the pull happens within the time limit, and from a legal spot, anything goes.
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Postby GregS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:34 am

GwaiLo wrote:so....does the receiving team have to get onside within the 16 seconds? Or in your version, can they setup anywhere on the field proper?

Anywhere. That's the "no rules about positioning of players" part of (a).

GwaiLo wrote:Also, who counts the 16 seconds?

Not really sure about that one. Could be handled like delay of game counts (as Jed said, audible warnings at 16/8/4 (or 20/10/5 depending on the count to be used)) or it could be done like stall counts with someone audibly counting (complete with fast count, etc.). Would really have to be tried, I think, to see what works.

GwaiLo wrote:What if there is a dispute or disagreement? (I assume once both teams agree to whatever happened, the counting starts, but I can see some teams starting to count, while another team argues, and the counting doesn't stop, etc.)

You mean a dispute about whether a point was scored? I think that according to normal rules, any discussion like that stops play, so the disc is not live; hence players cannot sub and the pull countdown doesn't start.

Jed wrote:I'd suggest a kind of reverse marking rule. Counting can only begin once all opponents have cleared the 10ft radius around the thrower / disc. Audible warnings given at 20, 10, and 5 seconds.

That's not a bad idea, though could get a little confusing to handle if the disc is being brought up to the line. Again, seems like something to try and see which way works best.

Jed wrote:I wouldn't include the restrictions on walking having to pull if you start to walk it to the line, etc. Even passing the disc should be allowed, within the endzone. As long as the pull happens within the time limit, and from a legal spot, anything goes.

I put that there, because it seemed easier than covering all situations like what happens if the person that scored the point throws it to someone else for this purpose and that throw is dropped or missed entirely, or how to differentiate between the pull and a throw like this (especially if this throw goes out of the end zone). Also, it puts a little more pressure on the players that would be back handling, hence furthest from the end zone when the point is scored, but would also want to do the pull; they have to hustle a little more to get to the actual location of the disc instead of having it come to them. But again, something to try and see how it works.
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Postby Mortakai » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:13 pm

Interesting... I'm curious to hear how it works out in testing.

I'm especially interested to hear whether this overly tires the becoming-offense team because they may need to run down the field only to immediately run back again whereas the pulling-becoming-defense may be able to take the lazier approach and wait for them to work it back a bit.

Although the fact that not all of the offense needs to run down may nicely offset that.

Another totally different option may be to play normal speedpoint (i.e., was-defense takes possession after the goal) for 5 total points, and then have a normal (or sped-up) pull. That way, you have a similar benefit of continuous fast play as with normal speed-point, while mixing up the ends every 5 points to even out the wind/light factors.
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Postby deanbrown » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:08 am

Why not just keep the disc after a point and then have to score going the other way? The person who scored doesn't have to the play the disc - probably best that they don't. Maybe a 16 - 20 second stall count on this change over
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Postby GregS » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:21 pm

deanbrown wrote:Another totally different option may be to play normal speedpoint (i.e., was-defense takes possession after the goal) for 5 total points, and then have a normal (or sped-up) pull. That way, you have a similar benefit of continuous fast play as with normal speed-point, while mixing up the ends every 5 points to even out the wind/light factors.

The problem I see with this option is that, in past speedpoint games that run in 1 hour time slots, if it's pretty windy, there seem to often be around 15 points scored in a game, which means one team gets two downwind "sets" and the other gets only one. If you consider going down to switching every 3 points, seems to me like you might as well just do it every point.

deanbrown wrote:Why not just keep the disc after a point and then have to score going the other way? The person who scored doesn't have to the play the disc - probably best that they don't. Maybe a 16 - 20 second stall count on this change over

This might work okay at low and middle skill levels where there are likely to be a lot of turnovers, but if two high-level teams are playing, the inherent advantage that the offence has becomes more pronounced, turnovers tend to be few and far between, and a team could run off several points in a row, maybe building an insurmountable lead before they ever turn it over.
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