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throwing from out of bounds

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throwing from out of bounds

Postby john mc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:06 am

I caught the disc in bounds and when I eventually came to a stop, I was out of bounds. I saw a streaking Noah Goldstein and my eyes lit up and I hucked it for the point. However, my pivot was clearly out of bounds when I threw the disc. We brought the disc back, I established a pivot in bounds and play continued.

What would have happened if Noah had dropped the disc? Obviously this is a hypothetical question because Noah always catches the deep throws.

Would it matter if my defender called me "out" before or after the throw?

John
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Postby Big Country » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:11 am

John, if Noah dropped it, it would have been a turn. It is basically a travel, so same rules apply.
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Postby Crunchy » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:12 am

I think the defender would call travel and everything would be treated like a travel. dropped disc = turnover.
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Postby josephkrengel » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 am

In this case though, the disc is live but its not "in play". The rules don't really say what the remedy for an "illegal" throw is.
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Postby Big Country » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:09 pm

josephkrengel wrote:In this case though, the disc is live but its not "in play". The rules don't really say what the remedy for an "illegal" throw is.


I don't think that makes a difference, by that logic, someone could catch a disc, have one foot in bounds, then when the second foot lands out of bounds and he lifts he first foot, he drops the disc. Are you saying that because he is not "in play" it would not be a turnover?
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Postby josephkrengel » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:24 pm

Actually, my concern was more with this:

IX.C.1

If momentum carries a player out-of-bounds after landing in-bounds with possession of an in-bounds disc, the player is considered in-bounds. For this exception to apply, that player’s first point of ground contact with any area must be completely in-bounds. The disc is put into play at the spot on the perimeter line of the playing field where the player first went out-of-bounds

In John's case he made a throw before putting the disc into play; this would be the equivalent to calling a "middle", walking a couple of feet in from the sideline after a pull, and then hucking the disc while everyone on the defense is setting up. The disc is "live" after a pull, just not in play, and the same applies to a catch in bounds where the receiver runs out-of-bounds.

I don't think that makes a difference, by that logic, someone could catch a disc, have one foot in bounds, then when the second foot lands out of bounds and he lifts he first foot, he drops the disc. Are you saying that because he is not "in play" it would not be a turnover?

As above, in this case the disc is still "LIVE", just not in play. Live discs are still subject to turnovers.
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Postby Big Country » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:05 pm

Even thought the quote of the rules you made below mentions "in play" it is not referring to the disc being considered "live - in play", you just can't throw from another spot. Hence, it is a "travel" if you throw it before going back to that correct spot on the field.

Definitely a TURN due to a TRAVEL call.
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Postby acarv08 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:41 pm

Big Country wrote:
Definitely a TURN due to a TRAVEL call.


But a travel call isn't a turnover.
If he caught the disc in the endzone and a defender called travel, the throw would have just come back, as it did in this case.

Also, it wouldn't necessarily be a travel. You're allowed a couple steps to slow yourself down after a catch, so if he caught it immediately inside the line and took a step out, there's no travel call.
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Postby Big Country » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:22 pm

acarv08 wrote:
Big Country wrote:
Definitely a TURN due to a TRAVEL call.


But a travel call isn't a turnover.
If he caught the disc in the endzone and a defender called travel, the throw would have just come back, as it did in this case.

Also, it wouldn't necessarily be a travel. You're allowed a couple steps to slow yourself down after a catch, so if he caught it immediately inside the line and took a step out, there's no travel call.


The original question was if the person threw from out of bounds and it was dropped. Travel is the first call and the drop results in a turnover.
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Postby acarv08 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:27 pm

Big Country wrote:
acarv08 wrote:
Big Country wrote:
Definitely a TURN due to a TRAVEL call.


But a travel call isn't a turnover.
If he caught the disc in the endzone and a defender called travel, the throw would have just come back, as it did in this case.

Also, it wouldn't necessarily be a travel. You're allowed a couple steps to slow yourself down after a catch, so if he caught it immediately inside the line and took a step out, there's no travel call.


The original question was if the person threw from out of bounds and it was dropped. Travel is the first call and the drop results in a turnover.


Well in that case it'd be a turn due to the drop, and the travel call wouldn't really have any effect on the outcome in that case.

Either way, there's no travel call on the play, unless he took some serious steps after he caught the disc.
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Postby oshai » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:38 pm

XVI.J. Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field and keep all or part of the pivot in contact with that spot until the throw is released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of play and a check.


It is a travel, since the thrower did not establish their pivot "at the appropriate spot on the field" as per IX.C.1 below. This is the same as calling middle and throwing from the sideline, walking a disc from the end zone on a turn over and throwing from 5 yards before the end zone line, etc.
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follow up

Postby john mc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:05 pm

In this particular case, a travel was never called. My defender called me out before I threw the disc but I conveniently ignored him because I honestly thought that I was still in bounds and I didn't want to stop the flow. Once the disc was thrown, I checked my feet and I realized that I was in fact out of bounds since I had taken a few steps after catching the disc.

Does "you're out of bounds" instead of "travel" change anything? Again, let's assume that Noah dropped the disc.

sequence:
defender - "you're out"
me - ignore call and throw
receiver - drop
Is there any way the disc would come back?
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Postby jed » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:11 pm

I think the only thing it might change is where the disc comes into play. If you concede that you were OB, the disc would come back to the point on line nearest to from where you went OB. If you dispute the call, the would play the disc from where it ended up.

For the travel, they play it from where it ended up regardless of whether you contest.
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Hold on...

Postby Kev » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:42 pm

I'd like to re-visit the whole 'Noah always catches the deep throws' comment.... how has this been ignored!!!

Also, is anyone taking into account that this is a Master's aged player making the throw, and that an immediate "it's in the 11th edition" comment is going to somehow make it's way into the discussion, definitely followed by John claiming "I'm John McArton, I can throw the disc from wherever the hell I want to" while folding his arms across his chest.

I've seen it....
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Re: Hold on...

Postby Big Country » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:13 am

Kev wrote:I'd like to re-visit the whole 'Noah always catches the deep throws' comment.... how has this been ignored!!!

Also, is anyone taking into account that this is a Master's aged player making the throw, and that an immediate "it's in the 11th edition" comment is going to somehow make it's way into the discussion, definitely followed by John claiming "I'm John McArton, I can throw the disc from wherever the hell I want to" while folding his arms across his chest.

I've seen it....


I agree with Kev. I say we delete the thread and start over.
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Re: Hold on...

Postby jed » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:38 am

Big Country wrote:
Kev wrote:I'd like to re-visit the whole 'Noah always catches the deep throws' comment.... how has this been ignored!!!

Also, is anyone taking into account that this is a Master's aged player making the throw, and that an immediate "it's in the 11th edition" comment is going to somehow make it's way into the discussion, definitely followed by John claiming "I'm John McArton, I can throw the disc from wherever the hell I want to" while folding his arms across his chest.

I've seen it....


I agree with Kev. I say we delete the thread and start over.


Come on guys, let's show some tact. John's obviously showing signs of senility. You gotta let some stuff slide.
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Postby dentonmatthew » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:46 pm

I see it like the classic Pick call

Since John is the thrower, by throwing the disc, he has not acknowledged the infraction (thus stopping play). So if his pass is dropped, then it is a turnover.

Continuation Rule XVI.C

Continuation Rule: Play stops when the thrower in possession acknowledges that an infraction has been
called. If a call is made when the disc is in the air or the thrower is in the act of throwing, or if the thrower
fails to acknowledge the call and subsequently attempts a pass, play continues until the outcome of that
pass is determined. For the purpose of the continuation rule, an uncontested stall that occurs after another
call is treated the same as an incomplete pass.
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