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Pick - Continuation Rule

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Pick - Continuation Rule

Postby larrypmac » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:31 pm

Player A has the disc. A pick is called, but the person with the disc does not hear and passes to a teammate. The pass is completed.

According to the rules:

XVI. C. Any time an infraction is called, the continuation rule applies. Continuation Rule: Play stops when the thrower in possession acknowledges that an infraction has been called. If a call is made when the disc is in the air or the thrower is in the act of throwing, or if the thrower fails to acknowledge the call and subsequently attempts a pass, play continues until the outcome of that pass is determined. For the purpose of the continuation rule, an uncontested stall that occurs after another call is treated the same as an incomplete pass. Play then either stops or continues according to the following conditions:

2. For calls made by a non-thrower:
b. If the team that committed the infraction has possession:
2. If the infraction did not affect the play, play stops and the result of the play stands.

In the game, the person who made the catch also did not hear that a pick was called, attempted a pass, and the pass was not complete.

My interpretation of the rule is that play stops and there is a game reset - the defender who was picked gets to catch up to their defender. The defensive team had the interpretation that any pick call is an advantage for the offensive team, and and subsequent turnover is a turnover. Their interpretation is this, again, quoting the rule:

Continuation Rule: Play stops when the thrower in possession acknowledges that an infraction has been called.

Since the receiver of the first pass became a thrower and did not acknowledge that an infraction has been called, play continued. I potentially disagree because the receiver was not the thrower in possession when the violation was called. The receiver was not the thrower in possession.

Who is right?

(During the game, the defense allowed the offense to retain possession of the disc in good spirit, and then I went over to talk to them about this play after the game.)

Thanks in advance, rules gurus.

Larry
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Postby AlePete » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:57 pm

"If a call is made when the disc is in the air or the thrower is in the act of throwing, or if the thrower fails to acknowledge the call and subsequently attempts a pass, play continues until the outcome of that pass is determined."

"That pass" is the pass that was made by Player A, who didn't hear the call, and threw the completion. The outcome of "that pass" was a completion, and play stops, regardless of what happens after that (subsequent passes).

This is commonly referred to as "1 pass continuation." Anything that happens after one pass is nullified.
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Postby GwaiLo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:04 am

Glad this was brought up as I too am curious of the proper ruling.

Further to the original question....and the reason that the debate came up in this instance. Defense was under the understanding that the pick was called by an OFFENSIVE PLAYER. Our argument was that since the Offensive team called the pick, and they did not acknowledge their own call, and still made 2 more passes after the call, the continuation rule would apply, and the second pass, which was D'd, would result in a turnover.

I'm not sure if the above would change anything. But that was the argument that was being made at the time on the field.

Also...out of my own curiosity, I've always thought that a pick can occur offensively OR defensively, but in looking at the 11th edition, it leads me to understand that picks can ONLY be called by the Defense. Is that correct? And if so, then again, would this situation not fall under the continuation rule since it was the Offense that called the pick?

XVI. I. - Picks:

"1. A pick occurs whenever an offensive player moves in a manner that causes a defensive player guarding (II.G) an offensive player to be obstructed by another player. Obstruction may result from contact with, or the need to avoid, the obstructing player.

2. A pick can be called only by the obstructed player and must be announced by loudly calling pick immediately after it occurs.

3. If play stops according to XVI.C, players reposition according to XVI.C.4. In addition, the obstructed player is then allowed to move to recover the relative position lost because of the pick."
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Postby AlePete » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:43 am

Only the defense can call a pick.

Certain obstructions of an offensive player may enable them to call a blocking foul, but an offensive player cannot be "picked."
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Postby larrypmac » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:29 am

GwaiLo, were you there? I don't know from your username who you are.

I don't know who actually called the pick, but it doesn't make sense that the offense would call a pick. What would this be - that the offensive player couldn't get to the disc because a defensive player got in the way (obstruction)? Or a spirit call where the offensive player recognized that the defensive player was picked. I can recall plenty of cases where a person calls a foul on himself, but I can't recall anyone calling a pick on himself.

Regardless, I think that play stops after the result of the first pass is determined. Thanks very much to AlePete for making that clear.

Larry
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Postby GwaiLo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:12 pm

larrypmac wrote:GwaiLo, were you there? I don't know from your username who you are.

I don't know who actually called the pick, but it doesn't make sense that the offense would call a pick. What would this be - that the offensive player couldn't get to the disc because a defensive player got in the way (obstruction)? Or a spirit call where the offensive player recognized that the defensive player was picked. I can recall plenty of cases where a person calls a foul on himself, but I can't recall anyone calling a pick on himself.

Regardless, I think that play stops after the result of the first pass is determined. Thanks very much to AlePete for making that clear.

Larry


Hey Larry.....yes, I'm Darren.

We were all under the understanding that it was somebody on Fire that called the Pick. So I think that's what caused all of this confusion. At this point, I have no idea who actually called it (after reading your posts). Everyone that I asked on our team thought the pick was called by Fire...and I guess you guys thought it was called by us :p. Maybe there never actually even was a pick call. LOL

I guess this just stresses the importance of echoing calls as soon as they are made.

Either way....I think given the situation, the only resolution was to send it back to the handler as was done.
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Postby Mortakai » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:37 pm

One pass is allowed.

If it's a "play on" situation (see the various conditions of the continuation rule), then no stoppage is necessary and further passes are allowed.

In ALL other situations, play ALWAYS stops after the first pass (... you should see "play stops" in all of the continuation rule conditions that are not "play on"). And so, any subsequent passes are negated regardless of whether they're complete or not, and regardless of who called the infraction or who may be on the benefiting side.

Re-read the continuation rule with that guidance in mind, and I'm fairly confident that this is what you're interpret from it.

... or at least that was the writers' intentions.
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Pick/Continuation

Postby pblizzar » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:04 pm

There's an interesting visualization of the rules here:

www.montrealultimate.ca/files/visual_rules.pdf

Check page 2. Can a rules expert check if that logic is solid?
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Postby lindyloo » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:23 pm

Yup, check has already done... Lorne Beckman is on the Standing Rules committee that contributed to the 11th edition.
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Postby Mortakai » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:52 pm

lindyloo wrote:Yup, check has already done... Lorne Beckman is on the Standing Rules committee that contributed to the 11th edition.


Yup, and the rest of the SRC are also solid with it.
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