Disc Space

[BBG]

The relevant rule:

XV.B.3:

Disc-space: If a line between any two points on the marker touches the thrower or is less than one disc diameter away from the torso or pivot of the thrower, it is a disc space violation. However, if this situation is caused solely by movement of the thrower, it is not a violation.

Now, as I understand it, any two points includes, say, your outstretched hands, so your torso can be one disc away from the thrower, but if you're arms are in a V-shape and 'wrapping', that's a violation (since a line between your fingertips will pass through the thrower, or within one disc diameter.) Am I correct here?

Assuming yes, here the next question: let's say you're playing a team who violates this rule. You call disc space, but they dispute the rule, saying that's not how it's interpreted. You show them the rule, but they're not buying it. So, they keep wrapping. All damned game. Or, get all sulky and say that they don't think it's necessary to play 'so strictly by the rules'. What do you do? We still kept calling the violation intermittently, but we got sick of it. Also, it's not (IMHO) a ticky-tacky call. It makes throwing more difficult. Of course, you can just pivot into them and call a foul, since they're in an illegal marking position, but they don't think they are, so that gets disputed to. Argh, as Charlie Brown might say. Any thoughts from the brain trust?

[mark_tran]

The relevant rule:

XV.B.3:

Disc-space: If a line between any two points on the marker touches the thrower or is less than one disc diameter away from the torso or pivot of the thrower, it is a disc space violation. However, if this situation is caused solely by movement of the thrower, it is not a violation.

Now, as I understand it, any two points includes, say, your outstretched hands, so your torso can be one disc away from the thrower, but if you're arms are in a V-shape and 'wrapping', that's a violation (since a line between your fingertips will pass through the thrower, or within one disc diameter.) Am I correct here?

Assuming yes, here the next question: let's say you're playing a team who violates this rule. You call disc space, but they dispute the rule, saying that's not how it's interpreted. You show them the rule, but they're not buying it. So, they keep wrapping. All damned game. Or, get all sulky and say that they don't think it's necessary to play 'so strictly by the rules'. What do you do? We still kept calling the violation intermittently, but we got sick of it. Also, it's not (IMHO) a ticky-tacky call. It makes throwing more difficult. Of course, you can just pivot into them and call a foul, since they're in an illegal marking position, but they don't think they are, so that gets disputed to. Argh, as Charlie Brown might say. Any thoughts from the brain trust?

Take it up with their captain. You have the correct interpretation of the rule. If the captain defends their team without reasonably listening to you, I would personally dock spirit points. Or you can take it to a higher level of TUC authority and see if they can do something about it.

[josephkrengel]

The best way to deal with this (and I see it all the time) is to try and deal with it on the sideline or after a play; this way you can't be accused of trying to gain an advantage. If they keep it up, then start calling it on the field. If they dispute it, take it up with captain. If they act like a douchebag, talk to your convener or the spirit chair.

[BBG]

The best way to deal with this (and I see it all the time) is to try and deal with it on the sideline or after a play; this way you can't be accused of trying to gain an advantage. If they keep it up, then start calling it on the field. If they dispute it, take it up with captain. If they act like a douchebag, talk to your convener or the spirit chair.

Tried dealing with their captain, the only problem was that he was the one arguing. I also tried talking to him on the sideline when we were both off. Heck, I even have that rule high-lighted from previous problems. Didn't help.

Ah well. It's one bad game, hopefully we won't see them again.

[GregS]

I hope you included either a note to your convener or an incident report when you submitted the score. While the BBS is fine for discussing things, it's not an official communication channel.

[muskokajoe]

The relevant rule:
XV.B.3:

Disc-space: If a line between any two points on the marker touches the thrower or is less than one disc diameter away from the torso or pivot of the thrower, it is a disc space violation. However, if this situation is caused solely by movement of the thrower, it is not a violation.

Here's a similar question, from a slightly different angle. Comments are appreciated.

The last sentence about the thrower movement causing the issue makes me wonder if the disc space should include the pivot - i.e. can I pivot toward the marker and then expect the disc space, or if he sets up a disc away while I'm pivoted away, am I then "causing" the foul by moving (i.e. pivoting) toward him?

I tried to call this foul a couple of times last night, but was browbeaten by the marker that he hadn't moved, so therefore (it was implied) couldn't have caused a foul.

With a day to think (and read the rules again), I'm pretty sure I should have been calling disc space violations and waiting patiently for the marker to comply, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

thanks.

[larrypmac]

I have always said that as long as the defender is stationary, if the person with the disc moves into the defense, it's not up to the defender to move away. A stationary defender in legal position cannot commit a foul.

Larry

[GregS]

I have always said that as long as the defender is stationary, if the person with the disc moves into the defense, it's not up to the defender to move away. A stationary defender in legal position cannot commit a foul.

Close, but not quite the whole story. XVI.H.3.a is the section that covers this. Parts 2-4 are the important ones here. I'm going to intentionally quote them out of order.

4. Any contact initiated by a thrower with the body (excluding arms and legs extended from the midline of the body) of a legally positioned (XIV.B.3) marker is a foul on the thrower.
2. In general, any contact between the thrower and the extended (i.e., away from the midline of the body) arms or legs of a marker is a foul on the marker, unless the contacted area of the marker is completely stationary and in a legal position.
3. Any contact that occurs due to the marker setting up in an illegal position (XIV.B.3) is a foul on the marker. [...]

So, if the defender is legally positioned, contact with their head and torso is always an offensive foul. If they're legally positioned and completely stationary, contact with their arms and legs is also an offensive foul. And if they're illegally positioned, any contact is always a defensive foul.

Of course, almost nobody is every actually legally positioned when marking (or, if they are, they're so far away that contact isn't even possible), and if they are legally positioned, it's pretty rare that their hands aren't moving at all, so 99% of the time contact is going to be a defensive foul.

[muskokajoe]

Thanks, Greg. (No thanks to you, though, Larry - kidding!)

I'm approaching about 95% clear understanding, which is about as good as it ever gets for me. I'll be sure to call this foul a few times this week just for practise.

Doug.

[HotSauce]

Calling fouls for practice? Getting ready for Masters? At a certain point, calling fouls/travel becomes your signature move...