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Rules Question - Pulling

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Rules Question - Pulling

Postby mcecch » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:45 pm

I cant believe this even was an issue but I was playing in a game where we were up handily and the other team was getting a bit frustrated - especially their one "vocal" guy.

We were on the line preparing to pull. The other team raised their hands indicating readiness as did we. I was standing about 5 yards deep in the endzone getting ready to pull when someone else on the line asked to pull. Nobody started running or anything (i.e. this wasnt a "fake" pull) and I flipped the disc to the other person and started getting ready to run down the field on their pull. The other guy started yelling that that was our pull and it was their disc where my teammate had caught it (actually was in the endzone but they wanted it on the line).

I was incredulous (there was nothing that happened that didnt make it obvious that I was just sharing the disc, even the other team didnt claim this) but he insisted since we'd both raised hands and since I threw forward and we were all onside that it was a pull.

I know logically this is ridiculous but is there a rule on this? (We gave them the disc just because of the situation/score and proceeded to be motivated to play our best D point of the summer, turned them over and went and scored and were happy when the game was over.)
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Postby tugbo » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:47 pm

So the rule states.

VIII.B.3. "The pull may be made only after the puller and a player on the receiving team both raise their hands to signal their team’s readiness to begin play. A team must have a minimum of two players and a maximum of seven players on the field in order to signal readiness. The pull occurs when the puller throws (II.T) the disc after signaling readiness."

The online annotated rules provided by USA Ultimate http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/of ... rules.aspx helpfully define the puller as "the player on the pulling team who possesses the disc and signals readiness".

This defnition is from Rule II.P. " ... The player on the pulling team who possesses the disc and signals readiness is the puller."

So yeah, by the letter of the rule the receiving team is right. Because you had the disc and signalled readiness you are the puller and your pass to your teammate was your pull. The receiving team has the option of gaining possession where it was caught (or at the line if possession would be gained in the endzone)

The receiving team also has the option of requesting a repull based on rule VIII.B.5
"A player on the throwing team may not touch the pull in the air before a member of the receiving team touches it. If this violation occurs, the receiving team may request a re-pull immediately."

While clearly this is the less advantageous choice for the receiving team they do have this option (which is a way for them to educate you on the rule without really pissing off the pulling team)
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Postby AlePete » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:21 am

tugbo wrote:So yeah, by the letter of the rule the receiving team is right. Because you had the disc and signalled readiness you are the puller and your pass to your teammate was your pull. The receiving team has the option of gaining possession where it was caught


You know, it's funny, because after seeing this thread I took a close look at the rules, and I'm not sure the rules actually state this. As far as I can tell, the only place the rules actually say that the receiving team takes possession of the disc is under VIII. B. 6. d. where it says if the disc initially hits out of bounds, the receiving team may put it into play. Everywhere else it simply says "if X happens, it (the disc) is put into play..." assuming that you will infer that it is put into play by the receiving team.

Additionally, VIII. B. 9. states that "After a pull, whichever player takes possession of the disc must put it into play." A player is any of the 14 persons on the field.

Therefore, it is my interpretation that since the player on the pulling team caught the disc, and the receiving team opted not to call a violation and ask for a repull, that he is the player who has taken possession of the disc, and therefore MUST put it into play. Congrats, you are now on offense!

(Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a serious rule interpretation)

On a slightly more serious note, the annotation to the definition of the pull states that "The pulling team may designate a new puller at any time before the pull." However, it is at odds with the fact that "the pull" seems to include throwing to a person you would designate a new puller, if you have already signaled readiness.

On another less serious note, if you have pulled a nice super floaty pull, that happens to be going out of bounds, and you manage to get all the way down and mac the disc back onto the field (note that contact with an out of bounds defensive player does not make the disc out of bounds)... the receiving team may ask for a repull, but hey, you pulled it out of bounds anyway, second try!
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Postby tugbo » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:44 am

AlePete wrote:You know, it's funny, because after seeing this thread I took a close look at the rules, and I'm not sure the rules actually state this. As far as I can tell, the only place the rules actually say that the receiving team takes possession of the disc is under VIII. B. 6. d. where it says if the disc initially hits out of bounds, the receiving team may put it into play. Everywhere else it simply says "if X happens, it (the disc) is put into play..." assuming that you will infer that it is put into play by the receiving team.

Additionally, VIII. B. 9. states that "After a pull, whichever player takes possession of the disc must put it into play." A player is any of the 14 persons on the field.

Therefore, it is my interpretation that since the player on the pulling team caught the disc, and the receiving team opted not to call a violation and ask for a repull, that he is the player who has taken possession of the disc, and therefore MUST put it into play. Congrats, you are now on offense!

(Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a serious rule interpretation)


LOL! You're right. I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that says the "receiving team gets possession after a pull." I just assumed this because in practice it is what happens whenever the pull is not dropped. Due to VIII.B.7 we know the disc is put into play where it was caught, but I don't see any rule that says that the receiving team gets possession (absent a turnover I don't see what stops the pulling team from retaining possession). All the more reason for the receiving team to call for a repull as per VIII.B.5.

Continuing in this ridiculous vein, it is important then when you change pullers not to either drop the disc (possession goes to other team, XII.A) or hand the new puller the disc (turnover, XII.D.2) .

AlePete wrote:On a slightly more serious note, the annotation to the definition of the pull states that "The pulling team may designate a new puller at any time before the pull." However, it is at odds with the fact that "the pull" seems to include throwing to a person you would designate a new puller, if you have already signaled readiness.


You are absolutely right, there does appear to be an inconsistency there (an inconsistency that relates directly to mcecch's original question). Mortakai? Can you help please?

AlePete wrote:On another less serious note, if you have pulled a nice super floaty pull, that happens to be going out of bounds, and you manage to get all the way down and mac the disc back onto the field (note that contact with an out of bounds defensive player does not make the disc out of bounds)... the receiving team may ask for a repull, but hey, you pulled it out of bounds anyway, second try!


While I applaud the speed and hustle of anyone actually pulling this off I feel like doing this would violate XIX.G in the Etiquette section.

XIX.G. In addition to the assumption that players will not intentionally violate the rules, players are similarly expected to make every effort to avoid violating them.
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Postby Mortakai » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:46 am

Interestingly, there's also a piece in the rules that states the pull is a throw "to the other team". Throwing or handing the disc from one puller to another one, or accidentally dropping the disc is NOT a throw to the other team. And so I suggest is not yet a pull.

I recognize that the rules wording may be unclear or inconsistent as to whether the original situation should be considered a turn or pull or repull or otherwise... In these cases I strongly suggest we consider it with the focus on how the game is intended to be played. That is, I suggest we would all agree that this type of handing/tossing the disc from one puller to another is not a pull, and so should not be considered one.

Apologies for the rules wording confusion... it should be fixed in the next version. And is the primary reason for the annotated wording, to attempt to correct/fix this confusion.
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Pulling

Postby mcecch » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:00 pm

In this case, I also like my "catch all" interpretation...use your brain and do what's fair! Obviously wasnt a "pull" so it's not a pull!
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Re: Pulling

Postby Mortakai » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:07 pm

mcecch wrote:In this case, I also like my "catch all" interpretation...use your brain and do what's fair! Obviously wasnt a "pull" so it's not a pull!

Absolutely! Couldn't agree more!
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