Too many men on the field

[J.Co]

So, defensive team (playing zone) realizes a few throws into the point that they have too many players on the field. What is the penalty for that? Can't be a turnover as it was the defensive team committing the violation

[GregS]

The penalty is living with the knowledge that, even with an extra person playing defense, they were unable to gain possession of the disc.

But seriously, I don't really know. It's not addressed anywhere in the rules. The turnover for having too many players is a TUC-specific speedpoint rule, not part of the USAU or WFDF rulebook. I guess you could call violation, stopping the play until the situation is resolved, though this seems more like a penalty against the offense whose flow is interrupted.

[Gonzo]

The penalty should be that the offense needs to deal with it, for forgetting to count the opposition before the point started...

[Crunchy]

you pick one guy and break his ankles.

that'll learn him.

[Mortakai]

Yes, the rules don't address this situation. Still being discussed whether the rules really need anything.

But personally, I'm always surprised to hear when this ends up happening. There's so much in the mechanics of the game that identifies an extra player on the field:
- the person the other team counts before showing readiness/pulling "hey, you've got too many players"
- the last defense player calling checks when matching up before the point doesn't have a person/number left to pick matching up players "hey, we've got too many players"
- the defense assigning zone positions before the point ends up with not enough positions for everyone "hey, we've got too many players"
- the subs on the side of the field, itching to get back on the field, count to check to see whether there's only 6 and they can run onto the field to play, or 7 and there's already enough players "hey, we've got too many players"

And all of these have to all break down to end up starting the point with too many players. If we don't care enough to make sure we have the right number and the right players and that everyone knows what position they're in and what they're doing, then perhaps it really doesn't matter how we resolve the situation.

[HotSauce]

But we all know how line calls work in league.

"You three in the cup. You two are hammer stoppers. You're mid mid. And I'm deep." with all the "You"s referring to a general vicinity of players.

"Wait...am I in the cup or hammer stopper...?" ...and the disc is pulled...

[nyxll]

Yes, the rules don't address this situation. Still being discussed whether the rules really need anything.

The rules don't address many things like: a player that runs out of bounds then returns inbounds elsewhere on the field. (like running behind bleachers, or standing in a group of opponents to pounce on the line)

It says that you must have a minimum of 2 players on the field to start the pull. Does that mean that any of the 5 others can join at any time?

It all goes against the spirit of the game, but some teams really don't care about spirit, especially at a tournament.

[smash-crunch]

Play never legally started so you go back to the pull, because one team was not allowed to signal readiness. The rules cover this fine.

VIII.B.3
The pull may be made only after the puller and a player on the receiving team both raise their hands to signal their team's readiness to begin play. A team must have a minimum of two players and a maximum of seven players on the field in order to signal readiness. The pull occurs when the puller throws (II.T) the disc after signaling readiness.

It says that you must have a minimum of 2 players on the field to start the pull. Does that mean that any of the 5 others can join at any time?

This is covered by

VIII B.4.a
After signaling readiness, players on the pulling team may move anywhere in their end zone, but their feet may not cross the vertical plane of the goal line until the disc is released.

VIII.B.4.b
After signaling readiness, players on the receiving team must be in contact with the goal line that they are defending without changing location relative to one another.

Those players joining after the pull are offsides and either team can use VIII.B.4.d rule to restart the point at the pull before the receiving team touches the disc.

VIII.B.4.d
If either team fails to maintain proper positioning before the pull, the other team may audibly announce off-sides and a re-pull ensues. The call must be made before any player on the receiving team touches the disc.

If someone comes onto the field after the pull, and after the receiving team has touched the disc, they are considered a non-player and thus out of bounds. They basically can't make a play on the disc.

IX.B
The out-of-bounds area consists of the ground which is not in-bounds and everything in contact (direct or indirect) with it except for players. Any non-players other than observers are considered part of the out-of-bounds area.

[tugbo]

Play never legally started so you go back to the pull, because one team was not allowed to signal readiness. The rules cover this fine.

If the violation (starting with 8 players) is noticed immediately following the pull then I agree, a repull is in order.

An issue arises when the 8 players aren't noticed for awhile. Your proposed resolution seems grossly unfair to the offence if they are on the verge of scoring at the time the violation is noticed. I don't think the resolution you propose would be supported by the rules in that case. The timing of the infraction and the timing of the call are not the same. This causes issues with XVI.A

XVI.A "An infraction may only be called by a player on the infracted team who recognizes that it has occurred, unless specified differently elsewhere. The player must *immediately* call “violationâ€￾ or the name of the specific infraction loudly."

XVI.C (continuation rule) governs how play resumes after a violation. If a few throws were made before the violation was spotted, I don't see anywhere that suggests that play would revert back to the pull in the case where the point would restart with a pull.

Normally if you don't call a violation right away then you lose the right to call make the call. The issue here is that playing with 8 players gives a continuous advantage beyond the time of the initial violation.

However, playing with 8 players is not a violation (although it neccessitates a violation to have occurred in the past).

In this sense "too many players" is not covered by the rules.

In these unusual cases where the rules seem inadequate I would follow mccecch's general rule interpretation for ambigous cases "use your brain and do what's fair!" (sourced from the "pulling" topic in these forums)

Amazingly, this is implicitly allowed by the rules with

XVI.D
"If a dispute arises concerning an infraction or the outcome of a play (e.g., a catch where no one had a good perspective), and the teams cannot come to a *satisfactory resolution*, play stops, and the disc is returned to the thrower and put into play with a check (VIII.D), with the count reached plus one or at six if over five."

So come up with a solution that people are fine with such as following the speedpoint rules for too many players and voila you have reached a "satisfactory resolution" and play can continue.

Shame is a good penalty for the defense.

[mark_tran]

Or you could just pay a bit more attention to what's going on on the field and not have this situation occur in the first place

[gabboflabbo]

Or you could just pay a bit more attention to what's going on on the field and not have this situation occur in the first place

I read the original post a week ago and thought the same thing: "How could anyone not notice too many men on the field?"

And then it happened in my game on Wednesday. My team was pulling to the other team and they had 5 guys on (plus 3 girls). For "some reason" we couldn't get the numbers for defence matched up: "I've got 4, who's got 5? ok nevermind, I'll take 5, someone take 4". After enough confusing dialogue, I pulled. Then one of their guys ran off the field halfway through the point, at which point we realized the problem.

So ya, it could happen to anyone =)

[HotSauce]

Or you could just pay a bit more attention to what's going on on the field and not have this situation occur in the first place

I read the original post a week ago and thought the same thing: "How could anyone not notice too many men on the field?"

And then it happened in my game on Wednesday. My team was pulling to the other team and they had 5 guys on (plus 3 girls). For "some reason" we couldn't get the numbers for defence matched up: "I've got 4, who's got 5? ok nevermind, I'll take 5, someone take 4". After enough confusing dialogue, I pulled. Then one of their guys ran off the field halfway through the point, at which point we realized the problem.

So ya, it could happen to anyone =)

Thanks for posting this. I didn't want to be the guy who said, "Duh?" Of course paying attention would have prevented this problem but then again "paying attention" would solve 84.965% of picks, fouls, foot blocks to the face, etc...