Stalled down, disc thrown but not caught, does O have disc?

[Edk001]

We love rules questions lately, don't we?

More fun than yet ANOTHER post by teams looking for lady subs, oui?

So here's another one.

I was marking someone in a game yesterday, and called out "stall ten", then "down". Guy threw disc and claims it was released before the "t" on ten.

Normally, since he contested, disc would have come back to him and I would tap it in at 8.

His receiver in the end zone didn't catch the disc, so people on both teams at that end said it was a turnover, and our player was about to check the disc in (i.e., we were on D, now on O from our end zone).

A brief conversation followed before that check-in, to try to figure out what the correct play was here (polite, not all of us are argumentative on the field).

His team on O leaned towards a turnover (and hence change in possession) rather than going back to thrower on a contested down call (which is what I thought should have happened here).

In the interest of time, and not dragging this out, we played on, but in retrospect, what was the correct call here?

[chris.price]

Ed, a pick was called on this play, by two ladies on the right hand side of the field. No one heard it - well, I kind of heard it, but no one including the thrower stopped playing, so I didn't either - and they didn't yell louder/repeat themselves.

The guy with the disc then threw the disc well after the pick call. It was not caught. Turnover. The only remaining question was, was it stalled down, or did we play it where it landed? Since the thrower insisted that he was not stalled down, but this is clearly a turnover regardless, we played the disc from where it landed. Game continued.

I think someone on the other team briefly insisted that the disc would go back, since a pick was called, which is clearly incorrect.

The lesson is: We're not playing in a library, people. When you're calling a pick, be vocal, and continue being vocal until people hear you and play stops.

[atanarjuat]

This is a fairly common situation and application of the Continuation Rule (XVI.C). The correct resolution is a turnover at the site of the drop.

More specifically, if you want to go through the guts of XVI.C (which is, admittedly, an almost labyrinthian rule), you start by looking at the outcome of the play: in this case, a turnover -- a drop. The stall call was contested, so you proceed with the rest of the rule.

A non-thrower made the call, so you proceed to XVI.C.2.

For the rest of the rule, the team that was on defense is now considered "the team in possession" on account of that drop (the rule operates on the current status as opposed to the status prior to the play). So you proceed to XVI.C.2.a.

The defense called this infraction (throwing a "stalled" disc). So you read XVI.C.2.a.2. It resolves that play continues unhalted. So the turnover stands.

ADDENDUM: Gah. Okay, I'll write another version for the case in which the concurrent pick call gets considered.

[Edk001]

Hmm, so two situations here. A pick call that nobody heard, and a stalled down disc, which the person being marked did not agree with.

[atanarjuat]

As before, we start at XVI.C. We have a thrower who did not acknowledge a call and a contested stall. XVI.C explicitly covers both situations in its own text, and it tells us to proceed with the rest of the specific rules. The outcome of the play was a drop -- a turnover.

A non-thrower made both calls, so you proceed to XVI.C.2.

For the rest of the rule, the team that was on defense is now considered "the team in possession" on account of that drop (the rule operates on the current status as opposed to the status prior to the play). So you proceed to XVI.C.2.a.

The defense called these infractions (a pick infraction and throwing a stalled disc shortly thereafter). So you read XVI.C.2.a.2. It resolves that play continues unhalted. So the turnover stands.

[Edk001]

Good to know. Thanks for the clarification!

[P.Sleeves]

The rules actually account for a contested stall down, where the disc is thrown and not caught spefically:

XIV.A.3.b: The thrower may contest a stall call in the belief that the disc was released before the first utterance of the word ten. If a stall is contested:
...
2. If the pass was incomplete, it is a turnover; play stops and resumes with a check.

As for the unacknowledged pick call, standard continuation rules applies.

[atanarjuat]

My bad -- knew I was forgetting something important.