Marking Fouls

[mcecch]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't find it so I'll try again....

What is the role of the "disc space" rule when the thrower is pivoting. I.e. with a hard "line" force, the marker establishes position, 1 disc space from my pivot foot (which is on the sideline). I lean out looking up line.

As the stall count progresses, I pivot back to throw a swing and make contact with marker's body. He's no longer giving me disc space (after I pivot).

Relevant questions....
- Does it matter if d is completely still or moving?
- Does D always have to give disc space as offense pivots (i.e. therefore the circumference of the pivot range is what d has to respect)

I'm not talking about hand swipes....this is body to body or body to stationary arm contact.

Thanks!

[theprdg]

- Does it matter if d is completely still or moving?

Yes - If D established a legal mark while you were looking up line and you pivot for the swing, if:

a) D does not move and contact is made, it is an offensive foul (very rare)
b) D shuffles to block the swing and contact is made, it is a defensive foul

- Does D always have to give disc space as offense pivots (i.e. therefore the circumference of the pivot range is what d has to respect)

No:

Disc-space: If a line between any two points on the marker touches the thrower or is less than one disc diameter away from the torso or pivot of the thrower, it is a disc space violation. However, if this situation is caused solely by movement of the thrower, it is not a violation.

[mcecch]

So, in essence, Defense moves = D foul. Defense completely stationary = offense foul

Thanks for clarifying.

[GregS]

- Does it matter if d is completely still or moving?

Yes - If D established a legal mark while you were looking up line and you pivot for the swing, if:

a) D does not move and contact is made, it is an offensive foul (very rare)
b) D shuffles to block the swing and contact is made, it is a defensive foul

Not quite. If contact is made on the body (other than arms and legs) of a legally positioned defender (moving or not), it's a foul on the thrower. If contact is made on the absolutely stationary arm or leg of a legally positioned defender, it's a foul on the thrower. If the arm or leg is moving, or the defender is not legally positioned, it's a foul on the defender. See XVI.H.3.a for specific wording.

[mcecch]

Thanks Greg.....that was kind of the genesis of the question I guess. What constitutes a "legally positioned" defender in this scenario? Assuming defender is moving is it a "gets to the spot first" scenario, a "could have avoided contact" scenario...or what?

[GregS]

Thanks Greg.....that was kind of the genesis of the question I guess. What constitutes a "legally positioned" defender in this scenario? Assuming defender is moving is it a "gets to the spot first" scenario, a "could have avoided contact" scenario...or what?

It generally means a marker that's giving you disc space. The online rules include this annotation, though, which I wasn't previously aware of:

If a marker is providing disc space, except for illegally wrapping the thrower with his arms, only contact with the illegally positioned arms is due to the marker setting up an illegal position.

[theprdg]

- Does it matter if d is completely still or moving?

Yes - If D established a legal mark while you were looking up line and you pivot for the swing, if:

a) D does not move and contact is made, it is an offensive foul (very rare)
b) D shuffles to block the swing and contact is made, it is a defensive foul

Not quite. If contact is made on the body (other than arms and legs) of a legally positioned defender (moving or not), it's a foul on the thrower. If contact is made on the absolutely stationary arm or leg of a legally positioned defender, it's a foul on the thrower. If the arm or leg is moving, or the defender is not legally positioned, it's a foul on the defender. See XVI.H.3.a for specific wording.

Oh man, I've conceded to one too many foul calls... thanks for clarifying Greg.