Q: When to start Stall Counts (Spirit vs Rules)

[cdilla]

In a REC level game last night, an opponent was yelling to his team mates to "start counting stalls" when one of our ladies hit the ground pretty hard while in the process of making a catch on the disc.

By the time our player got up (almost immediately) the mark was on stall 3.

The interpretation of possession is the issue - the definition “sustained contact with, and in control of, a non-spinning disc”.

2.Only the marker (II.K) may initiate or continue a stall count, and may do so anytime a thrower has possession of a disc that is live or in play. However, directly after a turnover or when putting the pull into play the stall may not be initiated before a pivot is established, unless delay of game or pre-stall rules (XIII.A.3, XIII.A.4, XIII.A.5 or VI.B.5.d) apply.

My argument was that someone falling or attempting to stand up (with no attempt to make a throw) should not be called stalls against – perhaps a “delay” call if absolutely warranted. The opponent disagreed, saying that as soon as the disc is caught, regardless if someone falls in the process - stalls can (and should) be counted.

What are the opinions of you guys on the BBS? Is it a legit to call stalls on a downed opponent, if not poor spirit?

[K.Zhan]

From a rules standpoint he is correct. The stall count begins as soon as you catch a disc.

Also since any point of the body can be a pivot you can technically throw from the ground / in the process of getting up.

A delay call would not be appropriate as it would mean that offence was purposefully delaying the game.

Anyways just my two cents

[mark_tran]

I usually make it a point to start counting stalls if someone gets a layout catch while I'm defending them

[Bass]

I'll put in my two cents as well, from a rules standpoint I think the opponent is correct, when playing I try to use my own discretion if someone makes a difficult catch and hits the ground hard I first check to see if they are ok and if I see them in the process of trying to get up I count stalls. I think its fair game if they are in the process of getting up that stalls should be counted. Also, as I interpret the rules possession is whenever someone catches the disc and is in their hands (no bobbling, etc). Not making an attempt to throw does not mean they dont have possession (someone can have the disc in their hands and choose not to attempt to throw while standing up, but that does not mean a marker cant count stalls on that person)

I remember someone telling me if someone attempts to play within the rules they can never be in poor spirit, I'm not sure if everyone here shares that same mantra but I think it's fair.

[GregS]

Everyone is right that the stall count can be initiated immediately, assuming that the recipient of the pass was on offence at the time (note the "directly after a turnover" exception in the rule cdilla quoted).

I remember someone telling me if someone attempts to play within the rules they can never be in poor spirit, I'm not sure if everyone here shares that same mantra but I think it's fair.

I agree that playing by the rules is not bad spirit. But spirit isn't a black-and-white system where the only options are "bad" and "fair". It might be extra good spirit to give someone who landed hard an extra second or two to collect their wits.

[cdilla]

I guess the interpretation revolves on the "sustained" aspect of the possession definition.

The literal definition for sustained is

“sus•tained/səˈstānd/
adjective 1. continuing for an extended period or without interruption.”

I hope you were joking Mark, but having played with/against you I suspect you aren't....

Calling stalls on someone that does a layout I was defending would be the least of my priorities – the first thing I would probably say is “nice catch man!”. That 1 second or so it would take them to pick themself off the ground is deserved. In fact, I would probably help them up.

There is a time and place for everything, and I feel that sportsmanship should be a much higher priority than gaining a stall count advantage – in REC league.

[K.Zhan]

As far as the rule goes I think you have your answer. As far as spirit goes as other posters have mentioned it isn't a black and white thing and you really can't fault someone for playing by the rules.

With that said in the heat of the moment things can be taken the wrong way and may seem / be unspirited.

In addition I understand in the REC league many things are disregarded / ignored in the name of spirit but as other posters have mentioned this may be an indication of extra good spirit and should not be taken for granted. Spirit is playing by the rules not being feeling that one should be entitled to anything more.

If you feel strongly about this you can always invoke the captains clause at the beginning of the game with the other captain to clarify this rule.

Anyways while I purposely did not answer the spirit question in my initial response, I hope that you currently have all the information you need to reflect upon what happened.