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UPA Rules Quiz at Ultipedia

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UPA Rules Quiz at Ultipedia

Postby ivar » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:24 pm

There's a new UPA 11th ed. quiz at the Ultipedia wiki.. at this point it's ~16 questions and takes about 10 minutes. Great fun for rules nerds ! Find it here.
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Postby inertia » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:38 pm

Cool quiz,
I thought I had a good feeling for the rules.
Clearly I don't when I scored 7/16.

(But I don't like the language used on question #8.)
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Postby Kev » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:35 am

Wow, great quiz. Good test for Captains to take.

Scored a 10/16 - can't believe some of them I got wrong.

Also got buggered up by the wording in #8... still don't get it to be honest.

I'm sending this to my teammates and getting them to fill it out. Anyone who scores less than a 7 is cut!!!
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Postby march » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:31 am

12 for me... some of them surprised me
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Postby Shamus » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:01 pm

I shocked myself with a solid 10/16 score. Surprising considering all of the bad calls I make.
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Postby ivar » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:14 pm

Kev wrote:Also got buggered up by the wording in #8... still don't get it to be honest.


The question states "Any uncontested foul committed by a defender that affects an attempted reception in the endzone results in a point." The question is designed to test whether the taker knows the different outcomes between fouls that a) result in loss of possesion in the endzone and b) result in a failed attempt at reception.

Any suggestions to make it more clear ? I tried to fill in all required data but kept it concise..
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Postby Sheff » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:36 pm

To explain the correct answer for question 6, it might help to also point out the definition of "Ground" (specifically the last sentence below).

Ground contact: All player contact with the ground directly related to a specific event or maneuver (e.g., jumping, diving, leaning or falling), including landing or recovering after being off-balance. Items on the ground are considered part of the ground

Overall I also thought it was a good quiz. Straightened me out on a couple of things.

DS
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Postby JLo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:54 pm

I dont like this interpretation:
11. Offensive player receives the disc while running at high speed, fakes a throw then delivers a quick pass before his third step after catching. Can travel legitimately be called ?

no

→ see section II.M and XV.C - Normally a fake requires a player with the disc to commit to a pivot, but XV.C explicitly makes an exception If a player catches the disc while running or jumping the player may release a pass without attempting to stop and without setting a pivot, provided that..


Consider this:
XV.C. In addition, each of the following is a travel:
1. A player catches the disc and either speeds up, changes direction or does not stop as quickly as possible before establishing a pivot (XV.B).



If you are throwing a fake, you are (arguably) impeding your ability to stop. Therefore travel.

As well, it makes no mention of the direction of the player. Thus you CAN call travel IF the receiver changed direction in those steps.
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Postby ivar » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:03 pm

JLo wrote:I dont like this interpretation:
11. Offensive player receives the disc while running at high speed, fakes a throw then delivers a quick pass before his third step after catching. Can travel legitimately be called ?

no

→ see section II.M and XV.C - Normally a fake requires a player with the disc to commit to a pivot, but XV.C explicitly makes an exception If a player catches the disc while running or jumping the player may release a pass without attempting to stop and without setting a pivot, provided that..


Consider this:
XV.C. In addition, each of the following is a travel:
1. A player catches the disc and either speeds up, changes direction or does not stop as quickly as possible before establishing a pivot (XV.B).



If you are throwing a fake, you are (arguably) impeding your ability to stop. Therefore travel.

As well, it makes no mention of the direction of the player. Thus you CAN call travel IF the receiver changed direction in those steps.


Good point about the change of direction, I'll fix that.. but I'd argue XV.C.1 only applies if you set up a pivot - if you're running and get your pass off before third ground contact there is no pivot so it doesn't apply.
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Postby JLo » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:54 pm

ivar wrote:
JLo wrote:
Consider this:
XV.C. In addition, each of the following is a travel:
1. A player catches the disc and either speeds up, changes direction or does not stop as quickly as possible before establishing a pivot (XV.B).



If you are throwing a fake, you are (arguably) impeding your ability to stop. Therefore travel.


Good point about the change of direction, I'll fix that.. but I'd argue XV.C.1 only applies if you set up a pivot - if you're running and get your pass off before third ground contact there is no pivot so it doesn't apply.


But if you fake you arent trying to stop. That's the point. You can't just keep running along to gain advantage.
Also, I would say if you are stable enough to throw a fake you have just established your pivot as you are stable enough to stop.


Mark Moran, if you are reading this I would love your opinion.
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Postby ivar » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:05 pm

JLo wrote:
ivar wrote:
JLo wrote:
Consider this:
XV.C. In addition, each of the following is a travel:
1. A player catches the disc and either speeds up, changes direction or does not stop as quickly as possible before establishing a pivot (XV.B).



If you are throwing a fake, you are (arguably) impeding your ability to stop. Therefore travel.


Good point about the change of direction, I'll fix that.. but I'd argue XV.C.1 only applies if you set up a pivot - if you're running and get your pass off before third ground contact there is no pivot so it doesn't apply.


But if you fake you arent trying to stop. That's the point. You can't just keep running along to gain advantage.
Also, I would say if you are stable enough to throw a fake you have just established your pivot as you are stable enough to stop.


Mark Moran, if you are reading this I would love your opinion.


Hee hee.. bringing in the heavy guns ?
I think the exception ( not being required to set a pivot with less than 3 ground contacts ) is to allow a quick passing style of play.. the rules are saying that all is fair (in terms of fakes and throws) during movement until you touch ground three times. IE: you simply aren't required to stop if you can get the disc off quick enough. The standard 'give/go' wouldn't be possible without this exemption.

Also, yay for wikis(!).. Josh Drury from the CUUC created a smaller (5 question) quiz specifically for throwing fouls. Check it here.
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Postby taylor.martin » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:08 am

I'm with ivar. You don't need to slow down at all or try to stop if you get it off within 3 steps. So fake away. Obviously there are too many situations and interpretations to make the quiz foolproof, but I'd say ivar's done a good job.
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Postby JLo » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:28 am

I realize why the 3 contact is allowed for the quick flow game with give'n go's etc. That's the way I love to play.

Bringing in the heavy guns because I simply want to know the answer as to how the rules were intended to be interpreted and he is the only person I know of that would be in that position. Just want to know what it should be as

The more I think of it the more I see how you are right.

Thanks for the quiz and the links by the way. I think the quizzes are great reminders of the rules.
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Postby Mortakai » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:37 pm

JLo wrote:I realize why the 3 contact is allowed for the quick flow game with give'n go's etc. That's the way I love to play.

Bringing in the heavy guns because I simply want to know the answer as to how the rules were intended to be interpreted and he is the only person I know of that would be in that position. Just want to know what it should be as

The more I think of it the more I see how you are right.

Thanks for the quiz and the links by the way. I think the quizzes are great reminders of the rules.


Did someone call for "Heavy Guns"?
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........./________/..////|
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........|./'.//..)_...|.....8///|
........|/..//..//.)..|.....8o///|
......../..//..//.//,.|../....8//|
......./..//..//.///..|./.....8//|
....../..//..//.///._|/......8//|
...../..(_)//.///..|.........8///|
....(_)'..`(_)//|.|.........8////|_______
...(_)./_\.(_)'|.|..........8///////////////
...(_)."/.(_)'|_|...........8/////////////
....(_)._.(_).d'.Hb...........8ooooopb'
......`(_)'..d'..H`b
............d'.....`b`b
...........d'.........H.`b
..........d'..........`b.`b
.........d'................`b
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Awesome rules quiz... Ivar's heard this from me already, but I'll say it again. Awesome. (Of course, it doesn't hurt that I score well on them :) )

Anyway, my ears were burnin' so I thought I'd drop in...

Basically, as long as the person doesn't speed up or change direction, and gets the throw off before their third contact, then they really can do what they want.

Remember that for the throw on the run, the player needs to be either running or jumping, so we're not talking about a slow walk where the person will have some significant amount of time to pivot and do all sorts of stuff. So typically, they will only have the time to catch and immediately throw, which is the basic scenario that I think of with this play, and very likely also in the mind of the rest of the SRC.

I think the question is probably more theoretical than anything that will commonly be seen in a game. I could see someone catching on the run and then immediately deciding to throw, then deciding not to, then deciding again to throw, all in the same direction to the same person, and could all take place in the matter of the two steps, which presumably would look like (and actually BE) a fake. Good luck doing anything like that in multiple directions or as a pre-planned action or practiced move.

But for testing the wording of the rules, it certainly works.
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Postby P.Sleeves » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:06 pm

For question 6, wouldn't the opponents bag being within the 5 meter "boundary" negate it being considered part of the ground?
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Postby march » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:19 pm

emorgoch wrote:For question 6, wouldn't the opponents bag being within the 5 meter "boundary" negate it being considered part of the ground?

5 meters? that's huge... I thought it was the standard 3 meters/10 feet

That being said, how many tournaments do you go to where that rule is enforced (with the exception of UPA Finals. Usually the neightbouring field is no more than 3 meters away
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#14

Postby E.T. » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:25 pm

Did I read #14 correctly? Did defence start counting before the disk was brought back into play?
An offensive player catches a disc while heading towards the sideline at full sprint. Her momentum takes her out of bounds where she falls.
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Postby Happy Camper » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:53 pm

Yes.

Do not run out of bounds with a caught disc in indoor and get caught in the net cause if you do you should expect to be stalled dead.
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Postby Happy Camper » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:59 pm

okay - I find q 6 (the bag beside the endzone question) either not clear or a little circumspect to the reality of Ultimate.

if the player catches the disc and controls it, makes ground contact in bounds and then slides o.b. and THEN FINALLY hits the bag and drops the disc it is a turnover.

but the showoff who grabs a disc in the endzone and touches down with one foot and then spikes the disc gets a point does not make sense to me.

why is that not a turnover?

either way, control of the disc was lost prior to the second point of contact (regardless if it was intentional or not).

besides, I would love to call turnover on someone if they spiked it prior to second point of contact.... :twisted:
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Postby ivar » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:26 pm

Happy Camper wrote:okay - I find q 6 (the bag beside the endzone question) either not clear or a little circumspect to the reality of Ultimate.

if the player catches the disc and controls it, makes ground contact in bounds and then slides o.b. and THEN FINALLY hits the bag and drops the disc it is a turnover.

but the showoff who grabs a disc in the endzone and touches down with one foot and then spikes the disc gets a point does not make sense to me.

why is that not a turnover?

either way, control of the disc was lost prior to the second point of contact (regardless if it was intentional or not).

besides, I would love to call turnover on someone if they spiked it prior to second point of contact.... :twisted:


The only relevance 'point of contact' has in determining a goal is if the first one is in the endzone.. other than that, the paragraphs of the rules provided when you finish the quiz are relevant to determining the answer. This particular question has been discussed a lot... for debate & clarification check out the VUL board and RSD.
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Postby P.Sleeves » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:34 pm

march wrote:
emorgoch wrote:For question 6, wouldn't the opponents bag being within the 5 meter "boundary" negate it being considered part of the ground?

5 meters? that's huge... I thought it was the standard 3 meters/10 feet

That being said, how many tournaments do you go to where that rule is enforced (with the exception of UPA Finals. Usually the neightbouring field is no more than 3 meters away


III.F: It is recommended that additional lines are established at three and five meters from the perimeter lines surrounding the playing field.
    1. Spectators and gear should remain behind the five-meter line to keep the perimeter safe and clear during play.
    2. Competitors and coaches should remain behind the three-meter line to allow play adjacent to the playing field.
III.G: If play is obstructed by competitors, coaches, spectators or objects within five meters of the playing field, any obstructed player or thrower in possession may call this violation. Play resumes at the stall count reached plus one, or 9 if over 8.


Seems to me like play was obstructed in this case, but how it should be technically resolved, I don't know.
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Postby ivar » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:39 pm

emorgoch wrote:III.F: It is recommended that additional lines are established at three and five meters from the perimeter lines surrounding the playing field.
    1. Spectators and gear should remain behind the five-meter line to keep the perimeter safe and clear during play.
    2. Competitors and coaches should remain behind the three-meter line to allow play adjacent to the playing field.
III.G: If play is obstructed by competitors, coaches, spectators or objects within five meters of the playing field, any obstructed player or thrower in possession may call this violation. Play resumes at the stall count reached plus one, or 9 if over 8.

Seems to me like play was obstructed in this case, but how it should be technically resolved, I don't know.


You'd have to call 'violation' before the play, otherwise the bag is part of the 'ground'.
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Postby Happy Camper » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:16 pm

ivar wrote:The only relevance 'point of contact' has in determining a goal is if the first one is in the endzone.. other than that, the paragraphs of the rules provided when you finish the quiz are relevant to determining the answer. This particular question has been discussed a lot... for debate & clarification check out the VUL board and RSD.


Okay – read the threads that you indicated (thanks for the links) and I get the point. The rules are clear, I just do not necessarily agree with them (not the rules per se but the spirit of the rules).

Let’s look at some examples:

Player A in full sprint to end zone catches disc on slide and touches first foot down in end zone. He has established control of disc (stopped spinning) and throws disc in air in celebration as getting up from slide prior to standing up fully. In trying to stand up, he trips and rolls end over end and lies in a heap on the ground.

Player B reaches from endzone to catch a disc that is out of bounds while dragging toes to keep feet in. Disc is caught and spin is stopped while player is still leaning over the sideline of endzone. As player is slowly falling to ground after spectacular catch, the disc is spiked prior to player hitting the ground.

Player C catches disc in corner of end zone in full flight and touches one foot down in the corner of the end zone (clearly in and disc control is clearly established) in taking his second step he spikes the disc, in taking his third step (as he has not been able to slow himself down yet) he hits that pesky tree by the sideline (see RSD examples), knocking himself unconscious.

In all cases the Player has not finished the move that caught the disc in the end zone (slide, full sprint, or slow layout) but has established control and performed another manoeuvre (the spike) – however, it is likely (or at least possible) that he may have dropped the disc prior to completing the move that allowed him to catch the point in all cases.

Since the move was not completed with the disc in the player’s control is it a turnover (let’s call it the anti-spike ruling)?

Or since a second move was done prior to the completion of the move that allowed the completion of the disc, then the first the move is considered completed and the point is awarded (let’s call it spike the disc as soon as possible ruling)?

If the first is true – there should be a LOT more turnover calls on spikes. If the second is true then a player should spike the disc as soon as control is established to avoid pesky bags or trees causing dropped discs and turnovers. In other words, the rules are promoting Spiking.

Any thoughts?
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Postby ivar » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:54 pm

Happy Camper wrote:Okay – read the threads that you indicated (thanks for the links) and I get the point. The rules are clear, I just do not necessarily agree with them (not the rules per se but the spirit of the rules).
Let’s look at some examples:
Player A in full sprint to end zone catches disc on slide and touches first foot down in end zone. He has established control of disc (stopped spinning) and throws disc in air in celebration as getting up from slide prior to standing up fully. In trying to stand up, he trips and rolls end over end and lies in a heap on the ground.


In this case, getting up isn't related to the catch so it's irrelevant.. but sliding along the ground is still ground contact related to the catch, so it's a TO.

Happy Camper wrote:Player B reaches from endzone to catch a disc that is out of bounds while dragging toes to keep feet in. Disc is caught and spin is stopped while player is still leaning over the sideline of endzone. As player is slowly falling to ground after spectacular catch, the disc is spiked prior to player hitting the ground.


That would be harder to call, and if player spikes it before finishing 'the catch' then I'd say it was a drop. It'd be pretty hard to imagine someone spiking the disc as they are falling though - if someone has the ability to spike, they probably can put their feet out and stay upright.

Happy Camper wrote:Player C catches disc in corner of end zone in full flight and touches one foot down in the corner of the end zone (clearly in and disc control is clearly established) in taking his second step he spikes the disc, in taking his third step (as he has not been able to slow himself down yet) he hits that pesky tree by the sideline (see RSD examples), knocking himself unconscious.


This one would be a point since hitting the tree is no longer related to the catch. He has to maintain possesion through 'ground contact' relating to the catch.. running with the disc is no longer 'ground contact' and a point would have already been awarded. If, on the other hand, the player ran into a tree after catching a disc in the playing field proper (ie: not a point) it'd be considered a catch then a drop and a TO. ( though players on both sides would have to ask themselves as to why they were playing in such a dangerous location, or pity the player who ran like a nutjob at the faraway tree...)

Happy Camper wrote:In all cases the Player has not finished the move that caught the disc in the end zone (slide, full sprint, or slow layout) but has established control and performed another manoeuvre (the spike)


The point of confusion is 'ground contact' vs. 'movement involved in catching the disc' (or something like that).. 'Ground contact' is a term defined in the rules, whereas movement related to a catch isn't.

Happy Camper wrote:If the first is true – there should be a LOT more turnover calls on spikes.'


Clarifying that a disc is down after an 'attempted reception' is good spirit (it's always good spirit to play by the rules) but make sure you can run faster than your opposition if you make a bad call :lol: .. The important element I think to understand is 'ground contact'.
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Postby ivar » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:06 pm

also note that dudes on RSD are still arguing fiercely about this point..
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