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zone defence

"Rant on your Soapbox" Revived!

Postby mdlane » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:39 am

how many times am i going to hear that story?
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Postby Bird » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:48 am

It is a good way to lighten up this topic...seeing as it is now know where near what the thread started about.
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Postby Wartank » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:48 am

mdlane wrote:how many times am i going to hear that story?


a better question: how many times can i hear this story and not get sick of it? i feel emotionally richer and more spiritually fulfilled every time.
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Postby Wartank » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:51 am

corchard wrote:This is my first post. Be gentle with me.
.

sure!

corchard wrote:The point to all this is that it is frustrating as hell for a new player to to be stymied. We lost a couple of newbies from our team for this reason. The skill of opposition outpaced their learning and my ability to teach them (man or zone).


excellent point! i give your first post an 'A+' with an extra '+' for first-post charm (aka helping me with my original point).
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Postby corchard » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:42 am

There are people that are obviously so so physically gifted and freaking intelligent that when learning a new skill they've never needed a little help.

I on the other hand, like most of the newbies I've played with, appeciate a game where sometimes people provide an encouraging word, or a little hint, even if they are on the other team.

Anyone in tiers 8-10 isn't under the delusion that they are playing for championship of the world (unless they have a very active fantasy life)

When I get to tiers 1-3 then maybe I can expect a "don't stop til you see the whites of their eyes" type game.
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Postby Sir Poach-a-Lot » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:20 pm

Jed wrote:If your opponent lets up on the strategies and tactics that they are using to beat you, how will you learn and improve as a team?


Pretty simple.... if you get 2 or 3 passes off before the zone forces a turn and scores then you get maybe 40-50 passes in a game. If they let up and you move the disc, perhaps even score some points... gasp.... you would get in hundreds of throws. Almost like practicing throwing, seems a plausible means to improving as a team.

Jed wrote:To be honest, I would be more likely to be offended if an opponent let up - like it was a sign of disrespect. What kind of satisfaction do you get from scoring on a team that isn't doing their best to stop you?


Sorry didn't mean to DISrespect U and UR boyzz.... but if I run the score won't it be a major DIS to shame you in front of your peeps? Are you really playing Tier 8-10 ultimate for personal respect? Is the ego that fragile? External validation issues perhaps? Where's the satisfaction in pounding a team that can't stop you even if you do let up?

Actually perhaps I've been too hasty... maybe you're right... come to think of it I have been disrespecting my nephew a lot when we play basketball. How could I have been so thoughtless....I've been going easy on his punk a$$. This weekend class is in session, I'll school him as a sign of respect, I'm sure he'll thank me for it later. :twisted:

I don't believe the world is binary, with only one right way to play? I am suggesting a spirited player can choose when to bring the A game and maybe even be so constructive as to help out a developing player/team along the way. Try to stretch your mind around the idea that there are many players, particularly at the early levels of the game, just out to be active, explore the game and get together with friends. They don't need to prove anything on the field to enjoy the game. That doesn't mean they want to get beaten into the stone age everytime they show up. I guess there's no room to accommodate them in your world? (what was the name of that world...? Gattaca?) :wink: Some of the Invalids are having pickup this weekend anybody in?
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Postby jed » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:11 pm

Sir Poach-a-Lot wrote:
Jed wrote:If your opponent lets up on the strategies and tactics that they are using to beat you, how will you learn and improve as a team?


Pretty simple.... if you get 2 or 3 passes off before the zone forces a turn and scores then you get maybe 40-50 passes in a game. If they let up and you move the disc, perhaps even score some points... gasp.... you would get in hundreds of throws. Almost like practicing throwing, seems a plausible means to improving as a team.


If I'm completing a pass because you're letting me, and not because it's a good pass / choice, I'm probably actually hurting my game. You know, learning bad habbits? Pretty simple. I might as well be playing catch in the park.

Jed wrote:To be honest, I would be more likely to be offended if an opponent let up - like it was a sign of disrespect. What kind of satisfaction do you get from scoring on a team that isn't doing their best to stop you?


Sorry didn't mean to DISrespect U and UR boyzz.... but if I run the score won't it be a major DIS to shame you in front of your peeps? Are you really playing Tier 8-10 ultimate for personal respect? Is the ego that fragile? External validation issues perhaps? Where's the satisfaction in pounding a team that can't stop you even if you do let up?

I don't know if you could have missed the point by a wider margin.
Actually perhaps I've been too hasty... maybe you're right... come to think of it I have been disrespecting my nephew a lot when we play basketball. How could I have been so thoughtless....I've been going easy on his punk a$$. This weekend class is in session, I'll school him as a sign of respect, I'm sure he'll thank me for it later. :twisted:

Thanks for making my point for me. I don't need or want you to treat me like your 8 year old nephew. Just play the game. (BTW - Mark Messier's dad never let him win).

I don't believe the world is binary, with only one right way to play? I am suggesting a spirited player can choose when to bring the A game and maybe even be so constructive as to help out a developing player/team along the way.

Absolutely agree - I'll always try to offer advice to newer players and teams, to help them improve and enjoy the game. Not to mention seeking advice from superior players - even during or after they've administered a beating on my team. Why is that mutually exclusive from bringing my A game? If a team wants to let up when they are winning, they are perfectly entitled to do so; but it should neither be expected or automatic. I'd much rather be stomped by GOAT playing their A game, than get 10 points on them because they're screwing around.

Try to stretch your mind around the idea that there are many players, particularly at the early levels of the game, just out to be active, explore the game and get together with friends. They don't need to prove anything on the field to enjoy the game. That doesn't mean they want to get beaten into the stone age everytime they show up. I guess there's no room to accommodate them in your world? (what was the name of that world...? Gattaca?) :wink: Some of the Invalids are having pickup this weekend anybody in?

If people are just out to have some fun and be active, they should not get upset when a team who takes the game more seriously than they do comes along and pounds them.

Play with respect for your team, your opponent, and the game. This is the simple definition of SOTG.
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Postby jabou » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:19 pm

Thanks for making my point for me. I don't need or want you to treat me like your 8 year old nephew. Just play the game. (BTW - Mark Messier's dad never let him win).


That's what new players need! Tough love! I remember every time my team got screwed up by a zone I realized it was a sign of respect and also but a small stepping stone to longer term success... too bad for my teammates who failed to see this truth and bailed to go play rec volleyball with their tarnished newbie rules. :twisted:

Isn't the purpose of the idea is to provide a stepwise approach to support skill development while also building interest, enjoyment, and/or participation to the sport? This appears reasonable in lower tiers since it could reduce newbie frustration when learning Ultimate fundamentals in game situations. Once they are "hooked" they can go on to perfect their zone, clam, junk, etc at higher levels.

This approach has worked to develop skills and broaden interest in other sports from which rec volleyball, T-ball, non-contact hockey, etc. are derived.

I disagree with the idea that the majority of newbies want to be tossed into the deep end from day 1.
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Postby Flynn » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:35 am

jabou etc., do you really think Tier 1 (i.e. A) level zones are being played in tier 10? Tier 10 zones are being played in tier 10. Tier 10 teams have a chance of beating them.

jabou, that your teammates ran to play rec volleyball isn't that big a deal. They didn't like ultimate. Not everyone has to love ultimate (though why they wouldn't is beyond me) and I don't think we should change the game to make it more appealing to everyone.

When I was learning the only thing I hated was high wind; zone d or not, beginners can't throw in the wind. I move to change the rules so that in tiers 9 and 10 games not be played on windy days because it has too great an affect on beginners confidence :P
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Postby kenney » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:51 pm

Kind of a strange thread...I started playing last year in C division on Monday nights and my team played almost all Zone for every game.

It was difficult to learn, and difficult to play against, but I never felt the need to complain or that there was some sort of unfair advantage.

Basically, I just dealt with it and learned to play Zone when I was on D and break the Zone when on O.

Perhaps it is because I started by playing Zone on D that I was able to play against it on O....which may lead to the conclusion that there should ONLY be zone in the low tiers.

:twisted:
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Postby Mike List » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:19 am

When I was first learning to play Frisbee football way back in the day, we went to a tournament in the States and, on the way down, my more expereinced teamates, plying me with various substances, convinced me that we would have a big advantage in said upcoming tourney, as the people in the US had not yet learned to throw a flick.

This was particularly encouraging for me at the time because neither had I. It was, also, of course, completely untrue and we lost evry single game we played by a very large margin. I was also quite frustarted, not to mention embarrassed, and decided I would definitely learn to throw, which I did, although I still have trouble with the hammer.

The moral of the story: losing, even by a lot, helps you improve and you can't learn to throw by quitting and playing rec beach volleyball.

You should probably remind your team-mates that if they want to get seriously ramped up for rec volleyball, they should contact the league about playing without a net, just for the first season or two.

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Postby Sir Poach-a-Lot » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:31 am

Nice switch Kenney,

I think the only time this type of problem occurs is when teams are of very different skill/experience levels. As long as the serious, more organized team isn't sandbagging in a lower tier then is shouldn't really be an issue at all. My thought is people should be humble enough to not humiliate another team when a different approach to the game would allow everyone to go home happy. I guess I need to accept that some people are way too competitive for their own good.

For the record, I am onside with Flynn in principle... but to ensure consistent schedules and game numbers maybe we can invest TUC $ in R & D to develop a gyroscopic blade proof disc that will fly flat in gale force winds to help out beginners?
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Postby BJ » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:40 am

Hey chappy.....I saw a white squirrel in Etobicoke this past weekend. And here I was not believing you all this time. I feel like such a fool. Sorry.
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Postby Sir Poach-a-Lot » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:55 am

Saddly, along with the young people of small towns like Exeter many of the squirrels have also had to relocate to the cities to find work. Hopefully that little guy can make it big for a few years and then be able to afford to move back out to the country.

More importantly BJ.... why wouldn't you believe me? When have I ever led you astray?
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Postby BJ » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:13 am

Sir Poach-a-Lot wrote:More importantly BJ.... why wouldn't you believe me? When have I ever led you astray?


Mostly because you are too tall and usually drunk. But I like your beard.
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Postby kenney » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:02 pm

Sir Poach-a-Lot wrote:Nice switch Kenney,



Thanks Mang.

Sir Poach-a-Lot wrote:I think the only time this type of problem occurs is when teams are of very different skill/experience levels. As long as the serious, more organized team isn't sandbagging in a lower tier then is shouldn't really be an issue at all.



This really shouldn't be an issue either, the league has already solved his by re-seeding better teams after each round.
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Postby Happy Camper » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:13 pm

Ahh... the old "talent versus system" argument last heard in Canadian hockey.

Should ALL teams be allowed to zone? Yes.

It really is the best way to learn how to beat a zone - by playing against it.

Is it unfair? No.

If you are reading this thread, you are probably into Ultimate enough to look up zones on the Internet. This will provide the basics of how a zone offence and defence are run, all that is then needed is practice (so it helps if the other team plays zone against you).

Should you crush the other team with your zone if it is obvious that they cannot handle it? Hmmm... captain's call. Personally, I get bored playing the same defence and it is better for your team to practice different things and not let the other team figure out your weaknesses. Plus, if the game is over too soon, then you probably did not get enough playing time.

Should you explain some zone basics to new teams? Yes, absolutely.

Always good to help teach another squad (assuming that they want to learn, I tend to ask first).

I do not think we should legislate zones as the admin for this would be difficult (is a poach a zone? what if you are just slower than the player you are covering and have a tendency to gravitate towards throwing lanes?) and when the team first sees a good zone (at a higher level) it will be much tougher to break than the weaker zones more likely being played at the lower levels.

I remember my first year in the league playing on Mondays. We got into the top Monday bracket for playoffs with a chance to win it all - very exciting. We were young (yes, even me) and fast (well, the rest of the team) and played a tough man to man defence that got a lot of turns and an impatient, huck it offence that was definitely not valuing the disc (very similar to how I play now).

We saw a zone for the first time in playoffs and lost in the finals because of it. Would love to have seen zone in the regular season so we could have practiced a bit against it and have been better prepared.

Oh well.

Anyway, I was bored and thought I would get one of these rant posts going again (hopefully).

As for "talent versus system" - a good mix is best for success - see Detroit Red Wings, NJ Devils, Olympic basketball. Pure system teams rarely win it all (Minnesota Wild, expansion Florida Panthers) while pure talent teams can sometimes get embarrassed (USA basketball).

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couldn't resist

Postby Wartank » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:12 am

re: post in 'clinics...' -- subj: Coaching assistance for Newtonbrook C.I.

tmeyer wrote: if the school coaches lift the restriction on zone defences


...fascinating! ;)
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Postby Wartank » Tue May 31, 2005 1:32 am

I helped lead a clinic on sunday.

The coaches had decided on a 'stations' type system, where players were to be rotated on a schedule. The beginner players would be separated from the get-go, so that they could learn the basics - throwing flick, throwing backhand, cutting, marking.

When we were deciding what to do for the 'intermediate' stations, the subject of zone O and D came up. One of the coaches suggested that they weren't ready to learn zone yet, and that we should focus on basics. We concluded that many of them had probably seen it before, and would probably be ready.

With the beginners, it didn't even begin to cross our minds to get into any of that.

Most league teams get together and play once a week. No practice. No clinic. Between trying to teach them the rules, and give them the confidence and knowledge to throw the disc, and helping them with marking and stacking, at what point can you start to teach them a zone? Sure, me and one other guy are reading this bbs a lot, but how many captains in tier 10 out there are reading about zone O and D on the internet, let alone having the time or capacity in order to teach it to their teammates?
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Postby jason » Tue May 31, 2005 8:01 am

I'm coaching a Wednesday C team, and I found myself in the same dillemma. We've had a few practices in the pre-season, but now that people are playing we don't have the bodies to have regular practices and games.

What I did was start by explaining the concept of a zone offence (that is, how to play against a zone with handlers, mids and deeps) without talking about defence. We've been using this system to spread the field and give people roles in the offence. By introducing this idea early, I hope that when a team slaps a zone defence on us we won't be caught completely unaware. So far it seems to be working well.
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Postby Nigel » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:23 pm

Perhaps this is the solution. Older experienced, zone-friendly (read slow) veterans can finally play man D without worrying about that "excessive running and athleticism." It reminds me of the blender policy of "Kids must also be leashed, unless they are playing ultimate, in which case some appropriate means (to be determined by captains before a game) must be agreed upon for tiring them out so that we can all hope to keep up with them."
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Postby HotSauce » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:48 pm

I saw this a while ago and wondered if it was violating the censorship laws of the BBS to actually mention much less *gasp* post a link to that unnamed "other" organization.

Since someone else did it, I found it funny that they are starting this because it implies two things:

1. Younger players don't want to play a "skilled game"
2. Older players don't like "excessive running and athleticism"

I'm sure all the juniors who came back from Finland would argue against the first point. As for the second point, who DOES like "excessive running". Isn't that the whole point of calling it excessive?
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