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Competition for TUC

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Competition for TUC

Postby Schultz » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:05 pm

interestingly, and relating back to all of the talk earlier this spring about TCCSC competing with TUC for the TUT tournament, TCCSC has now added a 7 on 7 division in their fall league .
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Re: Competition for TUC

Postby Kevo » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:47 pm

Schultz wrote:interestingly, and relating back to all of the talk earlier this spring about TCCSC competing with TUC for the TUT tournament, TCCSC has now added a 7 on 7 division in their fall league .


Nice... a little competition never hurt anyone, right?
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Postby Peeters » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:55 pm

It could just be a trend in the local Ultimate leagues. The Brampton Ultimate Club is moving from Fives to Sevens this fall as well. Of course, they don't really compete with TUC like TCSSC would with their new Sevens league.
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Postby Kevo » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:20 pm

Maybe TUC should move to Eight's. :P

Or perhaps men's only/women's only summer leagues?
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Postby Paper » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:41 pm

Why do I prefer TUC?

1. Because it's all about Ultimate, nothing else. It's not about sports, or socializing, or flag football, or anything else. If people stopped playing Ultimate and took up curling en masse, the TUC would still be here, faithful to Ultimate, just like it was where there were only 6 teams in the league. I value Ultimate enough to support an organization that's committed to it. I think it takes that kind of focused committment to keep the sport and SOTG strong.

2. The people I meet through the TUC are more sociable. They're nicer. They're more helpful, they're more knowledgeable and more passionate about Ultimate than people I've met anywhere else. I try to be more like them.

3. The Ultimate is awesome. I haven't found a better game of Ultimate anywhere.

4. It's all done for love. Yes, my touring teams have received monetary support for the coaching clinics we've put on, but we were putting them on before we got support, and we'd keep putting them on if support were cut off. However, I know that the casual coaching I got from people on the sidelines, people I was playing against, when I first started was not rewarded in any way but with my gratitude. I like that. A culture like that is worth nourishing. In fact, I almost can't think of anything that's more worthwhile.

All 4 of these things are advantages that can be defended. If another organization popped up that provided these 4 things in a better way than the TUC does, I'd start thinking about switching. I'm not a fanatical devotee. But I love me some Ultimate, and the TUC is the best place to get it.

At the same time, I realize that all 4 points that make TUC #1 for me are points that I can influence and strengthen. Which I try to do.

What do you value in the TUC and how can we strengthen those things?
Last edited by Paper on Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Competition for TUC

Postby Nigel » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:34 pm

Kevo wrote:Nice... a little competition never hurt anyone, right?

Sure it does. While this may promote ultimate further (which is a good thing), if TCSSC is playing 7's, then they need full-sized fields (or as a close facsimile as Parks & Rec can provide). TCSSC and TUC may have had a good relationship over the years, but if they obtain more full-sized fields, then there's less for TUC. As far as I can see, that component is a zero-sum game.
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Postby lennox » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:32 pm

Competition only hurts the providers (companies, etc.) but is great for the consumer of the products. If the TUC can't compete, then so be it. In the end, we as consumers of a product will benefit from the competition.

If TCSSC needs larger fields, maybe it's time for us to step it up and figure out a way to get a better share of the fields around Toronto. Because you know what, I'm tired of driving for an hour and playing on dirt parking lots at Cedarvale, York Mills and all the other "scraps" that we feed on. No wonder we're all wearing ankle braces.
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Postby orilliaboy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:15 pm

i played my first 4 years of ultimate with tcssc in the 5s format.
i played my last 2 years of ultimate with tuc in the 7s format.

winner, by a knockout, unanimous decision.... TUC

... for the following reasons:
1. way better spirit
2. way better overall knowledge of the rules
3. way better respect for fellow players (opponents)
4. free midseason tourney
5. free end of year tourney
6. heck, just having a tourney
7. way better team shirts (or actually getting a shirt)
8. continuity over the years - development of "arch" rivals
9. zone defense - nobody plays it in TCSSC
10. no stupid half rule
11. if you play twice a week, TUC is WAY (yes, WAY) cheaper.
12. TUC isnt in it for the money

... i could go on...

Now, can we please develop a curling league with the same ideals?
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Postby orilliaboy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:26 pm

btw, the opinions expressed below are solely those of the author and are by no means intended as a 'slam' on tcssc. that league certainly serves its purpose. and congrats to them for creating such a successful business in our capitalist society. I'm just sayin its not for me.

okay, so i was wrong about the half rule in tcssc - apparently it no longer exists.

will that put an end to the private messages?
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Postby reddog » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:20 pm

I played TCSSC for 3 years and I agree with everything written so far in comparing TUC to TCSSC, especially in terms of spirit, respect of other players and knowledge.

The one positive for TCSSC I want to point out however is that when I first started playing low-level TUC I didn't get the chance to handle much at all during my first two years and my situation isn't unique I'm sure. By playing 5's in TCSSC, it gave me the chance to handle the disk a lot more. It's definitely not the same as handling in 7's but I got more comfortable with handling the disk faster than I did in TUC.
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The REAL reason to play TCSSC...

Postby carpetman » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:52 pm

...is that the field situation in TUC is totally bogus. With TUC, you find yourself schlepping all over the city in order to play on rock-encrusted dustbowls like Cedarvale, Neil McNeil, and Flemingdon. Not to mention trying to get out to the Airport or the far reaches of Scarborough in rush-hour traffic!

In TCSSC, you have a maximum of three different fields that you play on, and none of them are Cedarvale.

For example, my Sunday TCSSC team plays at Sunnybrook, Eglinton Flats, or Sterling Hall (Near Yorkdale). All of which are in better condition and than any TUC field that I played on this year.

I want to come back and play TUC, really, I do, but an hour-long commute from downtown to get to games is not my idea of fun.

My $0.02
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Postby orilliaboy » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:02 pm

i would guess that if tuc had a sunday league, then we could also play at sunnybrook or eglinton flats. i imagine that all the competition is during the week.

what are the weekday tcssc fields? i recall having to drive to sheppard and don mills several times! that's pretty far for a western toronto dweller.

i would also note that having played at cedarvale last night - it's not horrific (not great either). and you can buy organic veges from the hippies who camp out next to the field. that's alright. just dont trip on the bricks in mid field. what's up with bricks on the field. my hypothesis: it used to be a landfill and the soil is eroding away...
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Postby lennox » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:15 pm

orilliaboy wrote:i would also note that having played at cedarvale last night - it's not horrific (not great either).


If cinder blocks sticking out of a rock hard dirt field isn't horrific what is?
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Postby orilliaboy » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:19 pm

okay, you got me.
but it was only one brick, barely sticking out... and was covered by a disc. wasnt rock hard either. i've played on worse.
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Postby lennox » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:24 pm

Good thing you missed the others. There are atleast 3 of them that are immovable, and quite hazardous.

I'm at Cedarvale tonight (again), so I'll find out how soft the concrete is tonight after the rain from last night. :cry:
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Postby lennox » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:25 pm

orilliaboy wrote:i've played on worse.


Where have you played that is worse?
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Postby beachbum » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:35 pm

Clearly quality and location of fields is a huge concern for the membership. If you ask me, we're getting screwed with our pants on by TCSSC and we should rethink our "friendly" position with them. They are adversaries and should be treated as such. They get the best fields - what?! our money isn't good enough for the city?!?! - and we get to travel for miles for the privilege of playing on glorified cow pastures. The other week I was side-stepping cut glass on Field 6w at Flemingdon only to have a team-mate's significant other show up to report that his TCSSC game was being played at Lamport later that evening.

The key philosophical differences between TUC and TCSSC have been delineated quite admirably in this thread. But if you ask me, again, ours is an organisation dedicated to its membership whereas TCSSC is a money-grubbing, me-first corporation. And it breaks my heart to see all the sweet fields go to the bloodless when they should be allocated to TUC.

"Where's the problem and how can the membership help to fix it?" are my key questions.
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Reality Check

Postby JimmyS » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:27 pm

I think as TUC members, we are all a little bit quick to blame our woes on organizations like TCSSC, TRSL, etc. What are we worried about?

Players? There is certainly no shortage of players that are interested in the game of Ultimate in the city. As far as I know, TUC has continued to grow over the years. Maybe having other organizations expose more people to the game has HELPED our growth.

Fields? How come no one mentions the really big organizations like the Toronto Soccer Association (TSA), Rubgy people, etc. These groups get first crack at the bulk of the fields. We compete for space with all groups, not just other groups playing Ultimate. Maybe the Ultimate playing groups should work together, not against one another. Perhaps that way, I won't have to take a Go-train to my TUC game.

I have played multiple seasons with both TUC and TCSSC - I find they compliment each other more than they compete against each other (players seem to graduate on to TUC after being exposed to the game at TCSSC). Let's stop pretending that we have to be the only providers of the game in Toronto.

Lionel: Creating adversaries in the community is probably the worst thing that TUC can do. Way to showcase the TUC "spirit".

Jim Steel

ps - not sure which league has more spirit, but I know that it doesn't exist in Tier 1 or 2.
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Postby will mercer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:39 pm

lwcole wrote:But if you ask me, again, ours is an organisation dedicated to its membership whereas TCSSC is a money-grubbing, me-first corporation. And it breaks my heart to see all the sweet fields go to the bloodless when they should be allocated to TUC.


Darn those greedy capitalists and their ability to provide a better service, despite the fact that we are clearly nicer people.

Frankly, I think that there is a place for both TCSSC and TUC in Toronto. True, they provide different services, but there is obviously demand for both, otherwise one wouldn't be here anymore.

Let me go a step further. TUC members wouldn't even know about those "better" fields out there if it wasn't for the people who also play on TCSSC teams telling us about them.

To extrapolate one additional level there would probably be (god forbid) softball players on those supposedly lush fields that we "lost" to TCSSC. I know that I would rather have ultimate players, regardless of the league, out there on those fields spreading the word about the World's greatest sport, than some "athlete" who has never left his feet to layout, or broken out of a walk save for that grueling 90 foot marathon from base to base.

History has proven repeatedly that the private sector better supplies the needs of the populace. Why must we demonize the TCSSC for helping to organize the sport that we all love to play?
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Re: Reality Check

Postby Sheff » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:41 pm

JimmyS wrote:not sure which league has more spirit, but I know that it doesn't exist in Tier 1 or 2.


Spirit doesn't exist in Tier 1 or 2?

I've played in both leagues in a variety of tiers and the spirit in the top TUC tiers is by far the best. There may not be any singing after the games, but there is very little BS, calls are (mostly) resolved with a minimum of fuss and there is a great deal of respect between the players.

Dave
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Postby Paper » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:40 pm

willis wrote:History has proven repeatedly that the private sector better supplies the needs of the populace.


Aside: What a second, what's TUC, a provincial ministry of disc? We're private sector too, aren't we? We're also a corporation, right? Seriously I don't know. Are we?
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Postby will mercer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:14 pm

Apologies, I may have too narrowly defined the Private Sector as being those organizations formed to generate profit. Not sure if the exact definition includes not-for-profits.
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Postby lennox » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:29 am

I agree that both leagues should work together to acquire more fields from the pool. However, for whatever reasons, it seems like we are getting the short straw and are forced to play on "open spaces" around the city.

I travel around, and I can plainly see nice fields. It's not through accounts from other players who are playing in the TCSSC, it's with my own eyes. We may not have permits to play on them, and I bet they are already permitted for various other sports, but they exist. I certainly don't want to take any fields away from other Ultimate players, but something needs to be done.

The fight for fields will never subside until we take a constructive step towards buying better permits or our own field space. I think a lot of us are tired of feeding on the scraps.

Speaking of which, I just got back from Cedarvale Upper, and suprisingly with half an ich of mud surrounding the granite and concrete, it was the best condition that I've ever seen Upper in. Comparitively, it was "lush".

I don't know what experiences JS has had with Tier 1 or 2, but one of the benefits of those two tiers is that we leave everything on the field because we know that we'll be playing or having a beer together at the next tournament or party. I really hope your definition of spirit has basis in terms of gameplay, because IMO, until people "graduate" to those tiers, many players still have the mentality of hockey, football, rugby, etc. Spirit goes beyond costumes, and singing. I hope that in the near future you are able to experience true top tier spirited game play.
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Postby Happy Camper » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:57 am

Fields are fields. Some are good, some are bad. Some are short, some are narrow, and some are dangerous.

And some, like the cricket pitches at Sunnybrook, are perfect.

Now, correct me if I am wrong (anybody who knows in TUC) but this year, any games at Sunnybrook are because TCSSC are letting us play there. It is part of a field sharing agreement due to the rather asinine way the Toronto Parks award fields.

Field space in Toronto is limited, so sharing agreements between organizations that participate in the same sport help grow the sport and will, hopefully, create more opportunity to get fields from other, more established sports such as soccer and softball as our popularity grows. 5,000 Ultimate players in Toronto have more pull and sway with the powers that be compared to only 3,000 players.

So Lionel, quit picking on the TCSSC. Bad Ultimate player. Bad.

As OrilliaBoy pointed out - lets all our enjoy our 'free' tournament weekend that will be at the very beautiful Sunnybrook park on excellent fields and leave it at that.

And for those of you who had to play at Cedarvale Upper - my condolences.

Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Reality Check

Postby Shamus » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:52 am

ps - not sure which league has more spirit, but I know that it doesn't exist in Tier 1 or 2.[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Having travelled around between different leagues and levels, the best spirit I have encountered by far is in tiers 1 and 2. My observation is that players at this level tend to know and respect one another, leading to productive debate on calls as opposed to kicking, yelling and screaming. They also tend to know the rules, hence the mutual respect.

I have to admit that I am also tired of the TCSSC bashing. Most of us learned the game there, and still tend to cross over when convenient. It would be much more productive to fucus on bettering TUC rather than slagging our competition. Not sure who made this point earlier, but competition for TUC is good. Kudos to TCSSC for building a successful business and offerring a product that appeals to many Ulty enthusiasts.
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Postby orilliaboy » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:29 am

[quote="Happy Camper"]lets all our enjoy our 'free' tournament weekend that will be at the very beautiful Sunnybrook park on excellent fields and leave it at that.[/quote]

Is the tourney at sunnybrook for sure?

i think this has been an excellent discussion and has offered up some great opinions. let's not forget that the purpose of this bbs is for individuals to 'rant and rave' their own opinions.

by the way, played last week at Lakeshore CI. that was one fantastic field!

As for the spirit discussion... i play on two tier 8 teams. There have been isolated incidents of bad spirit, but on the whole, the spirit has been pretty good. THe highlights include thursday night team Daved and ConfusED offering us cheese and bread after one game, and a full dinner spread and beverages after another game, as well as playing 5 "fun" points (left handed only, boy-girl-boy-girl, swill only, walking point...) when the game was out of hand. Our team is planning a picnic after the game tonight. Ninjastars also enjoyed playing some fun points after a game was over.
I guess the point is... spirit is what YOU make it - regardless of what the other team does whether you are in TUC or TC.

mmm.... picnic...
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Postby Peeters » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:16 am

willis wrote:To extrapolate one additional level there would probably be (god forbid) softball players on those supposedly lush fields that we "lost" to TCSSC. I know that I would rather have ultimate players, regardless of the league, out there on those fields spreading the word about the World's greatest sport, than some "athlete" who has never left his feet to layout, or broken out of a walk save for that grueling 90 foot marathon from base to base.


LOL. I've played softball, Willis. The bases are only 65 feet, you're being too kind! :lol:

If I read maps correctly, isn't Cedervale right over top of the subway line? Those bricks/cinder blocks might be leftover construction materials ascending to the surface now. Or, even worse, the subway structure is falling apart, or the whole thing is rising to the surface. :shock:

And as for those who don't like how far you have to travel sometimes, I have the perfect solution. Move to the suburbs. Then EVERY field is far away. Makes travel time much more consistent. I come from Mississauga every Thursday, so pretty much EVERY field takes at least an hour to get to. It's all about consistency, really. Of course, with gas at 1.258 a litre this morning, I may have to rethink my strategy. :lol:

At the end of the day, I knew what I was getting into by coming back to TUC, and I did it anyways. Why? I wanted to play Sevens with good competition. Would I like lush fields every week? Heck yeah. But I know it isn't going to happen. I do agree that something should be done to improve field quality, but until the permitting system becomes more fair to us, we'll have to be creative and learn to live with it, unfortunately.
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Postby orilliaboy » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:34 am

[quote="Peeters"]If I read maps correctly, isn't Cedervale right over top of the subway line? [/quote]

In fact, most of toronto's parks are one of:
a) former landfill site
b) overtop of a subway line
c) overtop of a reservoir
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Postby beachbum » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:38 am

Oh the backlash! The ignominy.

Alright, maybe I was somewhat irate at what I perceive to be the inequity of a for-profit organisation getting better fields over the non-profit org. As I said, that's a perception, may not be entirely based in fact.

In principle, I have a fundamental problem with a for-profit corporation paying for the rights to public fields and turning around and charging their constituents more money to play on said fields. IN TUC, the membership expects that our money goes to to the overall benefit of the membership, not to someone's pocketbook. That was the basis for my tirade.

Yes TCSSC has introduced more people to the game and to TUC, but I personally believe that it was not a cause and effect scenario and that the balance of those people would have been drawn to the game, and to TUC, regardless.

Lionel: Creating adversaries in the community is probably the worst thing that TUC can do. Way to showcase the TUC "spirit".
A bit harsh but I think you misconstrue my meaning, understandably so as I was ambiguous. I was thinking along the lines of competitive adversaries. Two organisations vie for Sunnybrook, which would you prefer gets it? The profit machine who are only in it for the money, regardless of the ancillary benefit of exposing the game - or the non-profit org which is dedicated to Ultimate the game and SOTG. If it comes down to us OR them, I vote for us, hence the notion of an "adversarial relationship".

If there is to be a fields "partnership", so be it, so long as it's fair and equitable.

Finally, as for Spirit at different levels and TUC vs. TCSSC, I'm chiming in on the side of those who rightly say that the upper tiers a) know the game better; b) know the rules better; and c) exhibit better Spirit. People often get confused between putting on a song and dance routine and good sportsmanship on the field. Spirit is displayed on the field, regardless of what happens off of it. If you're a perfect arsehole on the field but you come up with the best cheers, does that make you Spirited? Not in my books. And having played in both TUC and TCSSC in the upper levels, I can say unequivocally that I've encountered far better knowledge and SOTG in TUC.
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Postby ashunter » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:11 pm

orilliaboy wrote:by the way, played last week at Lakeshore CI. that was one fantastic field!


I think the field was improved by the stunning fashion sense of the team you played against. I like the fields there too, in fact there is space for 2 nearly full sized fields side by side. The only drawback is I haven't played there enough to find a good post-game watering hole in the nearby area. Any suggestions?
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Postby GregS » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:22 pm

lwcole wrote:Alright, maybe I was somewhat irate at what I perceive to be the inequity of a for-profit organisation getting better fields over the non-profit org.

Legally, TCSSC is a not-for-profit, the same as TUC. (Non-profit and not-for-profit are different legal entities; as I understand it, restrictions on non-profits are much higher, and in exchange they get to issue tax receipts.)

Anyway, the point is that the city does give higher precedence for fields to not-for-profit organizations than for-profit ones, which is why pretty much every sports organization (except Maple Leaf Sports :D) is legally set up as not-for-profit.

I did a little bit of math (PM me if you'd like to see the details), and was surprised to find that it looks like the average per-player, per-game cost for the two leagues is actually pretty close. It seems like maybe TCSSC would have lower costs, since they can play on smaller (hence probably cheaper) fields, but that is offset by the lower number of players on each roster. All in all, it now looks to me like perhaps they are not somehow hiding as much profit as I had previously thought.
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