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Spezza controversy

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Spezza controversy

Postby JohnyUtah » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:05 am

Apparently Pat Quinn kept Spezza out of the starting line-up because he is still sore after being outscored 125-4 by the Senators this season.
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Postby jason » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:55 am

You know what? I stopped caring the second they announced Todd Goontuzzi was on the team. Lovely example to set for our children... attack someone and destroy his career and then play for our Olympic team.
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Postby GregS » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:42 pm

jason wrote:attack someone and destroy his career and then play for our Olympic team.

Did you hear the spin that was being put on it by the organizers? It was along the lines of "Forgiveness is a very Canadian virtue." I'd look up the exact quote, but I'm about to head out to do my Christmas shopping.
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Postby Happy Camper » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:08 pm

What, exactly, do you expect?

While what Bertuzzi did was horrible, he has been punished, sued, charged with a crime and apologized.

Why should the COC hold a player to a higher standard then the NHL, judicial and criminal systems?

You can not like him for what he did and you may choose to never forget and never give the guy another chance - your call. But to expect a body whose main task is to go get gold (and if you think that Canadians as a whole would be willing to settle for silver and not have Bertuzzi on the team, you would be slightly delusional) would not choose the players to get the best possible team, is not reasonable.

You should be more concerned about Todd's penchant for taking stupid penalties at bad times.
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Postby GregS » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:31 pm

Happy Camper wrote:Why should the COC hold a player to a higher standard then the NHL, judicial and criminal systems?

The COC chooses a team to represent our country. The players should be proud to play for their country (e.g. witness all the Russians who have declined to participate in recent years), and we should be proud of our team.

Having Bertuzzi on the team sends a message to the rest of the world that I'm not real comfortable with: that it's whether you win or lose, not how you play the game. That's not an attitude that I have in life, and I'm embarassed that my country does.
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Postby Happy Camper » Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:53 am

So why do we have a juvenile court system? Why not brand a kid with his/her crimes on his/her forehead so everyone can know what he/she did for the rest of his/her life?

If you can never be forgiven for something you have done, no matter how big or how small, where does that leave us? No possibility of error is a pretty small margin to play with.

Had Bertuzzi been suspended then he should not be eligible. But he is not - so the COC should be able to pick him.

Is he a steroid or drug cheater? That would be different.

He is a guy who did a very stupid thing, however if you have watched the tape you can see him sucker punch Moore, but the rest was unintentional. Moore collapsed forward with Bertuzzi leaning on him, this caused Bertuzzi to fall forward on Moore driving him to the ice. The results were horrific but there is not a hockey player I know who would try to do that sort of damage to another player.

Personally I do not see how it sends a message to the rest of the world about how we play the game that we take a guy who made an error, apologized and was punished for his deeds. He is not an America sprinter, a Russian cross country skiier or certain baseball players who cheat. That, to me, sends a stronger message about winning at all costs, not choosing Bertuzzi.

As for the Russians not playing - do not kid yourself that it was a national issue. They did not want to play for Tikanof (whatever the spelling is).
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Postby GregS » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:26 am

Don't confuse punishment and rehabilitation with forgiveness. The court metes out punishments, and the jail system, if all goes well, will rehabilitate the criminal so that they are unlikely to be a repeat offender. This is why we don't brand our convicted felons, juvenile or otherwise (although, if you were to ask any convicted and rehabilitated child molester, they might say otherwise).

Forgiveness, on the other hand, is something which must be earned. It starts with a sincere apology, something Steve Moore and I (among others) don't believe Bertuzzi has made. Yes, he apologized. Yes, he cried. But I think he was far more upset by the impact of the incident on him than the impact (no pun intended) on Moore.

Bertuzzi is a grown boy, and has to deal with the consequences of his actions, just as the rest of us do. Nobody ever sets out to commit vehicular manslaughter (if they did, it would be murder....) on their way home from a party, but it happens all the time. If you drive drunk and run someone down, you have to pay the price, and part of that price may be that the victim, their family, and others may never forgive you, even after you've served your jail time.

The COC is certainly well within their rights to select Bertuzzi to the team. I happen to think they should have declined to do so. He set out to intentionally injure Moore (not as badly as he ended up doing, but that's just a matter of degree), and in my book that's way worse than steroids or any other form of cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to explain my viewpoint.
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Postby cwdm31 » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:41 pm

Based on your example, I can only assume you don't think Heatley deserved to make it either (drunk driving or not).
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Postby GregS » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:31 am

Au contraire, I believe that Heatley is truly sorry for his act, and so he can be forgiven. If Snyder's family has done so, so can the COC, and I have no problem with his selection.

It's not the act that I have a problem with. Anyone can do something stupid. As Rob said, "No possibility of error is a pretty small margin to play with." It's what is done afterwards that is the true measure of the man.
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Postby HotSauce » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:08 pm

GregS wrote:Au contraire, I believe that Heatley is truly sorry for his act, and so he can be forgiven.


I think this is where this argument is never going to be resolved. Maybe I don't believe Heatley is "truly sorry" and I believe Bertuzzi is "truly sorry". Maybe I think that neither of them are "truly sorry". That's my opinion. I don't hang around these guys. Even if I did, I don't know if they will NEVER do what they did again. Ditto for all the "rehabilitated child molesters".

There is no way we would be able to dig into the past of every Olympian to determine if he/she meets our high standards of morality.

What if we did? Would we kick a swimmer off the team because he had a juvenile record? Would we kick a runner off the team if she had been caught with marijuana in her car when she was in high school? Does Hockey Canada monitor every player's hard drive to make sure none of them are watching child porn?

Who judges who is "worthy" of playing in the Olympics?

And, if you're going to compare, Bertuzzi did a despicable thing in the context of an arena where slamming people into glass and wood or dropping your gloves and pummelling someone to the ice is acceptable. Moore's career is over but he's still alive. Heatley got behind the wheel of a very powerful car and drove at dangerously high speeds. Dan Snyder's career is over AND he's dead. Heatley's sentence was far lighter than anything he would have received if he was not a star hockey player. What if Heatley had struck a car carrying a young family? What if they had died instead of his friend? Where does celebrity justice draw the line?
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Postby GregS » Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:49 pm

buddhalicious wrote:I think this is where this argument is never going to be resolved.

Hey now, no fair trying to be reasonable in the Rant and Rave forum! You're right, of course, except that this is a debate, not an argument. You've noticed that my posts have been riddled with "I believe"; I have no delusions that everyone believes, or should believe, the same as I do. (I have plenty of delusions, this just isn't one of them!)

Hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, it was uninentional, and I offer my apologies.

Now that I've taken care of that, I'll answer one of your questions. The COC judges who is worthy of playing, and they have done so, but part of the fun of any list is debating the inclusions and exclusions.
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Postby Happy Camper » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:08 pm

Which brings me full circle.

I am happy to debate the selections for Team Canada based on merit not based on moral issues.

Was Bertuzzi truly sorry - I do not know. Do I respect him as much now as I did before the incident - no. Will I ever - probably not.

Do I think he should be on Team Canada - maybe, but that is assuming he can reign in his tendencies towards taking stupid penalties. I may have not selected him if I were making the choices but I can certainly agree that the reward can be potentially large.

Then again, if I were the Canucks, I would trade him for Luongo.
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Postby HotSauce » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:51 pm

Happy Camper wrote:Then again, if I were the Canucks, I would trade him for Luongo.


DO IT!!!! I think many fantasy hockey owners would be made happy by that trade.
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